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	<title>Comments on: The Denialism Dodge</title>
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	<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/</link>
	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: NeuroLogica Blog &#187; The Mind-Brain Problem - A Creationist Rebuttal</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator>NeuroLogica Blog &#187; The Mind-Brain Problem - A Creationist Rebuttal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-979</guid>
		<description>[...] I have discussed previously, one way to dodge the obvious conclusion from this evidence is to confuse the question of how the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have discussed previously, one way to dodge the obvious conclusion from this evidence is to confuse the question of how the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NeuroLogica Blog &#187; More on Dualism and Denial</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-617</link>
		<dc:creator>NeuroLogica Blog &#187; More on Dualism and Denial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-617</guid>
		<description>[...] Last week I wrote about dualism - the philosophical position that the mind is somehow more than or separate from the biological activity of the brain. I argued that dualists commit the same error in thinking as creationists when they doubt the causal relationship between brain an mind because we cannot fully explain how the brain causes mind, not recognizing that this is a separate question from does the brain cause the mind. In the same way creationists confuse scientific knowledge concerning how evolution works with the evidence for the fact of evolution. We can know that life evolved without knowing all the details of how, just as we can know that the mind is a manifestation of brain function without knowing all the details of how brain function creates the experience of mind. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Last week I wrote about dualism &#8211; the philosophical position that the mind is somehow more than or separate from the biological activity of the brain. I argued that dualists commit the same error in thinking as creationists when they doubt the causal relationship between brain an mind because we cannot fully explain how the brain causes mind, not recognizing that this is a separate question from does the brain cause the mind. In the same way creationists confuse scientific knowledge concerning how evolution works with the evidence for the fact of evolution. We can know that life evolved without knowing all the details of how, just as we can know that the mind is a manifestation of brain function without knowing all the details of how brain function creates the experience of mind. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: M4tt</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-615</link>
		<dc:creator>M4tt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 21:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-615</guid>
		<description>Actually, I take some theologians extremely seriously - but only when they are talking about issues where belief in a God does not get in the way of good metaphysics and theorising.  Depending on your point of view that may be an asymptotic realm!

As for Davidson I think AM is rather beautiful and has been hugely influential on me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I take some theologians extremely seriously &#8211; but only when they are talking about issues where belief in a God does not get in the way of good metaphysics and theorising.  Depending on your point of view that may be an asymptotic realm!</p>
<p>As for Davidson I think AM is rather beautiful and has been hugely influential on me.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael.Meadon</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-613</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael.Meadon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 16:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-613</guid>
		<description>Re:M4tt... 

Yeah, you&#039;re right - Donaldson isn&#039;t a substance dualist. I was grasping at straws trying to think of serious philosophers who actually still defend dualism. (Can you think of any? I can&#039;t.) [Obviously, I&#039;m not counting theologians. I don&#039;t think they should be taken particularly seriously]. Donaldson comes closest to the dualisty concerns wrt freedom. The main point of AM, it seems to me, is to &quot;attempt to hold on to both materialism and free will&quot; (as I said in my post, above). 

To be honest though, AM has never made sense to me. I&#039;ve read the &quot;Mental events&quot; paper a couple of times (this was a number of years ago) and could never wrap my mind around it. Frankly, I didn&#039;t think it was coherent. That said, I&#039;m no philosopher and I&#039;m sure you know more about the issues than I do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:M4tt&#8230; </p>
<p>Yeah, you&#8217;re right &#8211; Donaldson isn&#8217;t a substance dualist. I was grasping at straws trying to think of serious philosophers who actually still defend dualism. (Can you think of any? I can&#8217;t.) [Obviously, I'm not counting theologians. I don't think they should be taken particularly seriously]. Donaldson comes closest to the dualisty concerns wrt freedom. The main point of AM, it seems to me, is to &#8220;attempt to hold on to both materialism and free will&#8221; (as I said in my post, above). </p>
<p>To be honest though, AM has never made sense to me. I&#8217;ve read the &#8220;Mental events&#8221; paper a couple of times (this was a number of years ago) and could never wrap my mind around it. Frankly, I didn&#8217;t think it was coherent. That said, I&#8217;m no philosopher and I&#8217;m sure you know more about the issues than I do.</p>
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		<title>By: Why I am beginning to think I am the only skeptic &#171; The Agnostic Blogger</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-611</link>
		<dc:creator>Why I am beginning to think I am the only skeptic &#171; The Agnostic Blogger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 03:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-611</guid>
		<description>[...] (Read the article here) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (Read the article here) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: M4tt</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-609</link>
		<dc:creator>M4tt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-609</guid>
		<description>Just a quick response to Michael Meadon&#039;s assertion that Davidson was a dualist ...

It seems obvious to me that Davidson was a property dualist rather than a substance dualist. He is not claiming that there are two sorts of stuff (say, mind and matter). Indeed, he is explicit that there is only one sort of stuff - which is why he called his position anomalous MONISM.

However, Davidson argued, persuasively to my mind, that:

1) Mental events are indeed entirely physical events and are instantiated in the brain.

Hence monism.

2) The descriptions of mental events are incommensurable with descriptions of the biology in which they are instantiated. 

Hence anomalous.

The position is subtle, nuanced and extremely useful - it might even be right - I think that people as far apart as Lynne Rudder Baker and Andy Clark buy this position.

However,  anyone who buys Dennett&#039;s  AM light, &#039;intentional systems theory&#039; is at least as much of a dualist as Davidson as they accept that certain (physical) patterns are only discernible from a particular (mentalist) stance (which is incommensurable with the physical descriptions - that&#039;s what all that talk about Martian mindreaders was trying to obfuscate).  

Let me put it another way. Davidson, I think, believes that the two are simply logically incommensurable while Dennett veers wildly between outright elimination, Davidson&#039;s position and logically commensurable but practically incommensurable depending on how real he needs &#039;stances&#039; to be for whatever project he is engaged in!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick response to Michael Meadon&#8217;s assertion that Davidson was a dualist &#8230;</p>
<p>It seems obvious to me that Davidson was a property dualist rather than a substance dualist. He is not claiming that there are two sorts of stuff (say, mind and matter). Indeed, he is explicit that there is only one sort of stuff &#8211; which is why he called his position anomalous MONISM.</p>
<p>However, Davidson argued, persuasively to my mind, that:</p>
<p>1) Mental events are indeed entirely physical events and are instantiated in the brain.</p>
<p>Hence monism.</p>
<p>2) The descriptions of mental events are incommensurable with descriptions of the biology in which they are instantiated. </p>
<p>Hence anomalous.</p>
<p>The position is subtle, nuanced and extremely useful &#8211; it might even be right &#8211; I think that people as far apart as Lynne Rudder Baker and Andy Clark buy this position.</p>
<p>However,  anyone who buys Dennett&#8217;s  AM light, &#8216;intentional systems theory&#8217; is at least as much of a dualist as Davidson as they accept that certain (physical) patterns are only discernible from a particular (mentalist) stance (which is incommensurable with the physical descriptions &#8211; that&#8217;s what all that talk about Martian mindreaders was trying to obfuscate).  </p>
<p>Let me put it another way. Davidson, I think, believes that the two are simply logically incommensurable while Dennett veers wildly between outright elimination, Davidson&#8217;s position and logically commensurable but practically incommensurable depending on how real he needs &#8216;stances&#8217; to be for whatever project he is engaged in!</p>
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		<title>By: VoA</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-603</link>
		<dc:creator>VoA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-603</guid>
		<description>happy humanist: heh, I hope you are not really a &quot;humanist&quot; ;)

Humanism is pretty dogmatic and largerly psuedoscientific with respect to the mind and differences between us and other animals. Thats why I&#039;d call myself a post-humanist (you can look at on the ole Wikipedia too).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>happy humanist: heh, I hope you are not really a &#8220;humanist&#8221; <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Humanism is pretty dogmatic and largerly psuedoscientific with respect to the mind and differences between us and other animals. Thats why I&#8217;d call myself a post-humanist (you can look at on the ole Wikipedia too).</p>
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		<title>By: VoA</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-602</link>
		<dc:creator>VoA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-602</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d agree with Michael.Meadon here. There is a LOT of low-hanging fruit and issues of definition as well. This entry does seem to focus on some random crap and then dismiss an entire topic with a bit too much of a broad brush. Otherwise good though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d agree with Michael.Meadon here. There is a LOT of low-hanging fruit and issues of definition as well. This entry does seem to focus on some random crap and then dismiss an entire topic with a bit too much of a broad brush. Otherwise good though.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael.Meadon</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael.Meadon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-596</guid>
		<description>Bowdinium...

Yeah, you&#039;re right: your question does still stand. I don&#039;t know what the answer is either - although, a priori, I&#039;d be rather surprised if there were too many. Perhaps Steve has some anecdotal evidence? That said, people often compartmentalize quite successfully so I doubt it&#039;s totally unheard of. 

The question of how the &quot;soul&quot; interacts with the body is of course the doozy: it&#039;s a central concern in the philosophy of mind since Descartes. Several strange (and entirely untestable) ideas have been suggested; my personal favorite is Leibniz&#039;s parallelism (http://www.philosophyonline.co.uk/pom/pom_psychophysical_parallelism.htm) 

Everybody else... 

I&#039;d suggest that some of the commentators (again, not Steve) have been a bit too hung-ho... Yes, I agree the mind is what the brain does (as Pinker put it) and, yes, dualism is crap. But let&#039;s not lose sight of the fact that there are many unsolved problems - and several mysteries (in Chomsky&#039;s usage of that term). 

(I keep having to defend philosophy... For the record, I&#039;m NOT one - I do cognitive science and evolutionary psychology. I just think the combination of (a) ignorance of philosophy and (b) contempt of philosophy is not a particularly viable position. You have to have a reasonable degree of familiarity with the serious academic literature - and not just stuff gleaned second hand from popular-writings - to have a serious intellectual position on this stuff.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bowdinium&#8230;</p>
<p>Yeah, you&#8217;re right: your question does still stand. I don&#8217;t know what the answer is either &#8211; although, a priori, I&#8217;d be rather surprised if there were too many. Perhaps Steve has some anecdotal evidence? That said, people often compartmentalize quite successfully so I doubt it&#8217;s totally unheard of. </p>
<p>The question of how the &#8220;soul&#8221; interacts with the body is of course the doozy: it&#8217;s a central concern in the philosophy of mind since Descartes. Several strange (and entirely untestable) ideas have been suggested; my personal favorite is Leibniz&#8217;s parallelism (<a href="http://www.philosophyonline.co.uk/pom/pom_psychophysical_parallelism.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.philosophyonline.co.uk/pom/pom_psychophysical_parallelism.htm</a>) </p>
<p>Everybody else&#8230; </p>
<p>I&#8217;d suggest that some of the commentators (again, not Steve) have been a bit too hung-ho&#8230; Yes, I agree the mind is what the brain does (as Pinker put it) and, yes, dualism is crap. But let&#8217;s not lose sight of the fact that there are many unsolved problems &#8211; and several mysteries (in Chomsky&#8217;s usage of that term). </p>
<p>(I keep having to defend philosophy&#8230; For the record, I&#8217;m NOT one &#8211; I do cognitive science and evolutionary psychology. I just think the combination of (a) ignorance of philosophy and (b) contempt of philosophy is not a particularly viable position. You have to have a reasonable degree of familiarity with the serious academic literature &#8211; and not just stuff gleaned second hand from popular-writings &#8211; to have a serious intellectual position on this stuff.)</p>
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		<title>By: ellazimm</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-denialism-dodge/comment-page-1/#comment-594</link>
		<dc:creator>ellazimm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=60#comment-594</guid>
		<description>Bowdinium:  From my discussions with true-believer dualists some of them believe that the brain is like a two-way radio and that a mechanism will be discovered.  Some of them also seem to think that it&#039;s possible for energy to exist in a free state.  That kind of idea does help if you also want to believe in ghosts.

Now, if they posited bleed throughs from a parallel universe they might get interesting.  But they&#039;d still have to find the receiving and transmitting portion of the brain.  OH WAIT!  It&#039;s quantum entanglement.  Whew, thank goodness for paradigm shifts eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bowdinium:  From my discussions with true-believer dualists some of them believe that the brain is like a two-way radio and that a mechanism will be discovered.  Some of them also seem to think that it&#8217;s possible for energy to exist in a free state.  That kind of idea does help if you also want to believe in ghosts.</p>
<p>Now, if they posited bleed throughs from a parallel universe they might get interesting.  But they&#8217;d still have to find the receiving and transmitting portion of the brain.  OH WAIT!  It&#8217;s quantum entanglement.  Whew, thank goodness for paradigm shifts eh?</p>
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