http://www.drericaperez.com

I’m not sure what this “statistic” is supposed to point out. That patients go to the chiropractor after other treatments have failed? That most people go to an MD for their health problems first? That not all physical ailments are curable?

It still says nothing about the efficacy of your interventions, nor does it say anything about the efficacy of the physician’s interventions. This is a self selected pool, and as a result you state the obvious as if it says something profound.

You misunderstood the survey I cited (McDonald, above). You are right, 1/5 of chiros are “straights” (you termed it “principled”); but most of the rest (88.6% total) retain the belief in subluxations (which betrays ignorance of basic anatomy and physiology). My facts are right.

As for your assertion that quacks are few in chiro, there is little evidence to support it. Go to http://www.quackwatch.org and its subsidiary, chirobase, and look at the surveys. Most chiros offered (useless) treatment to asymptomatic people, or bogus help for visceral illness, and failed to recognize symptoms of an emergency.

The facts support me, not your testimonial.

Would someone tell me how that makes 4 years out of HS? NO ONE in her class had less than a BS or BA degree.

Now if you are talking about outside of the US, I guess that is possible, or someone (like me) who went to chiropractic college in the 70′s. When I got my license only 2 years of college was required before the 4 years of chiropractic college. (I got my BS anyway.)

In regard to the comment “90% of your profession makes the rest look bad” because they speak of subluxation, your facts are wrong. 22% of the practicing DC’s in the US are subluxation based and call themselves “principled”. The rest are those who use manual therapies, drugless methods, and refer out to MD’s and others for cases that are not chiropractic related. I will post the source of this survey (I believe it was published in Chiropractic Economics) when I get exact links so all can read it.

Again, like all professions, chiropractic has their wackos, but they are the few, not the many (at least here in the US).

A quote from an MD (orthopedic) friend of mine. I told him how to put all chiropractors out of business. He said “You are kidding, right?” I told him nope.. just get them all well first. He let out a breath of air and then agreed with me.

By my estimate (my office experience only), 70-80% of chiropractic patients have seen their MD first and the treatment was not successful.

Acupuncture is not harmless. It killed my father. The quack he went to used a weird combination of acupuncture, magnetotherapy and homeopathy. The quack used crude sterilization, keeping the needles immersed in alcohol when not in use, claiming that autoclaving them would “diminish their potency”. Repeated puncturing of the skin first created rashes, and then open scars, finally turning them septic. By the time I wised up to what was happening my father had lost 10 kgs, was suffering from urine retention, sepsis and raging toxic shock. Call me if you would like me to talk about the evils of acupuncture. I cannot get my father back, but I can surely prevent others from losing their near and dear.

“By correcting these displacements of osseous tissue, the tension frame of the nervous system…” D.D Palmer in his first book. Chiropractors have always thought themselves to work through the nervous system since day dot.

Absolutely, but he claimed the nervous system’s purpose was to distribute a vital energy force, not merely as a signaling mechanism. He thought he cured a deaf man by manipulating his spine; that has nothing whatsoever to do with the nerves that feed the ear’s actual hearing mechanism, which pass directly through the skull.

As far as treating meningitis there was a study (I’ll have to dig up the reference when I have more time) where chiropractors were asked how they would treat patients presenting with various symptoms. Some included patients with classic meningitis symptoms. Some recognized the imminent danger and referred to ER; others simply recommended adjustment and sending the patient on their way.

You say our brain can influence your immune system (which is correct) yet you say that it is not influenced by the nervous system. It may not be DIRECTLY controlled with nerves innervating lymphocytes but it is responsible for regulating the hormones which do control the immune system (as you say).

Yes, I was specifically stating that the brain does not directly control the immune system. It signals via hormones instead, which are released from within the brain itself directly into the bloodstream. This is not something that any adjustment can influence, except in the sense that if a person is experiencing pain, they are likely to be stressed, which in turn has an immune suppressant effect.

As far as how long symptom relief lasts — out of curiosity, what do you consider long-term? My husband sees a chiropractor on an “as needed” basis, and this generally ends up being three or four times a year. I would consider that long-term symptom relief. (Short-term would be like the 4-8 hours you might get with an anti-inflammatory pill.) So yeah, I can buy that. If it only lasted a week at best, it would be short-term and probably not worth the time and money.

In the middle are those who have noticed the past century of neuroscience and realize that what’s traveling along nerves is signals, not some mystical energy force

“By correcting these displacements of osseous tissue, the tension frame of the nervous system…” D.D Palmer in his first book. Chiropractors have always thought themselves to work through the nervous system since day dot.

On the straight end, you find chiropractors who will attempt to treat a person presenting with symptoms of meningitis.

Please provide evidence for this statement.

You sound like you’re somewhere in the middle, as you say things like “The nervous system controls everything in your body (including your immune system). ” This is not true, but I’ve heard it claimed by chiropractors often enough that I believe it’s something you’re taught. Consider this: many quadriplegics have quite good health. If a completely severed spinal chord doesn’t kill them, clearly many of their systems are able to get on with things even in the absence of conscious nervous control.

The immune system is actually a good example of one system *not* directly controlled by nerves. Your brain can influence your immune system, but it does so through a different signaling mechanism: hormones, which travel through the blood. You can completely sever the spinal cord at the base of the neck and still have a normally functioning immune system. As long as it’s not so high as to be fatal (you do need nerves to breathe), your immune system will keep ticking along just fine.

You say our brain can influence your immune system (which is correct) yet you say that it is not influenced by the nervous system. It may not be DIRECTLY controlled with nerves innervating lymphocytes but it is responsible for regulating the hormones which do control the immune system (as you say).

You say many quadriplegics have good health, which is true in some. The brain that influences the immune system, the parasympathetic system via CN X (vagus) and the vital sympathetic nerves in the upper cervical area (Phrenic C3,4,5 as you used as an example) are still intact and functioning. In fact early chiropractic philosophy was that adjusting these upper cervical vertebrae to be the most powerful and important. That being said quadriplegics do have a lower life expectancy which is multifactorial (just being immobilised causes many of the same problems) and for instance loss of continence can cause significant increase risk of UTI and mortality. There is far too many factors to say what exactly decreases life expectancy however depression and suicide also contribute.

For the treatment of back pain, especially lower back pain, there is considerable evidence that it can provide symptom relief.

There is also evidence as previously referenced by myself that long term function and symptoms are improved making it more than JUST immediate symptomatic relief.

@ Joe

The Bronfort review you linked is not what you think it is. (First, it does not provide the statistics about chiro use that you mention.)

It reviews spinal manipulation which is the main tool of a chiropractor, read into that as you will. Sure there are other modalities but there is plenty of reference to spinal manipulation which is as I said the modality of choice for most chiropractors.

In addition, Bronfort has a very low standard for success. For example, there were two studies concerning bed-wetting; both found chiro ineffective yet Bronfort reports they were favorable.

Bronfort reports there is inconclusive evidence which is favourable. The two studies (one of which is a Cochrane review) state
“Active chiropractic adjustment had better results than sham adjustment (RR for failure or relapse after stopping treatment 0.74, 95% CI 0.60 to 0.91). However, each of these findings came from small single trials, and need to be verified in further trials.”

With Cochrane concluding “There was weak evidence to support the use of hypnosis, psychotherapy, acupuncture and chiropractic but it was provided in each case by single small trials, some of dubious methodological rigour. Robust randomised trials are required with efficacy, cost-effectiveness and adverse effects carefully monitored.”

This is why in the review it is inconclusive but there is favourable weak evidence for.

Please continue to tell me what else is “wrong” with Bronfort as the two points you have raised are illegitimate.

@webble on 26 Apr 2010 at 7:50 am wrote “The nervous system controls everything in your body (including your immune system).”

That is wrong, I will leave it as an exercise for you (based on your knowledge of anatomy and physiology) to figure out why

Don’t be so condescending, provide an example of why it is wrong and you would have made a much better point than slander. To clarify I do not necessarily mean that each cell is individually monitored and innervated, if this is how you read it.

Bronfort notwithstanding, there still is feeble evidence for any effectiveness of chiro (outside of low back pain) and it is likely to disappear if chiros ever learn how to do research.

There is plenty of evidence and there is nothing substantially flawed about Bronfort other than your own reading comprehension. Also your point on chiropractic research is to some extent valid, however you must take into account we don’t have huge pharmaceutical companies funding research (and in some cases biasing them) and with most chiropractors in private practice it is easy to see why our research may not be as of high quality as say a well funded pharmaceutical trial through a hospital in the public health system. It will get there and there is emerging evidence all the time.

Actually the body does have a form of “innate” intelligence, but with respect to chiropractic treatment, it functions best as a reparative system undoing as much as possible the damage being done by the chiro.

Reference please.

I wasn’t upset at you, I was trying to show you the facts. You cannot have a good school of chiro any more than you can have a good school of astrology. As noted above, the Association of Chiro Colleges says the subluxation is central to chiropracty. They cannot teach a good program based on fiction, no matter what their catalog says.

Also, this blog post is about the finding that 95% of chiro web sites offer bogus treatments. In addition, I linked to a survey that shows 90% of them believe there are subluxations, and 67% think they cause visceral ailments. Chiros are beginning to have a problem with that term and many are now adopting things they hope are synonymous, and obscure definitions, such that it seems they don’t follow the straights; but they still believe. There are more surveys at Q-watch and Chirobase that emphasize the point.

Put bluntly, your notion that there can be a good chiro school is belied by the nonsense most chiros advertise and believe, and the core of their curriculum.