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	<title>Comments on: Sorry, Egnor, Your Pillars Are Still Shattered</title>
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	<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/</link>
	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: aquademia</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-9187</link>
		<dc:creator>aquademia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-9187</guid>
		<description>What is it with neurosurgeons and dualism?  I am reminded of the similar debate, half a century ago, between the neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield and the neurologist/psychiatrist Stanley Cobb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it with neurosurgeons and dualism?  I am reminded of the similar debate, half a century ago, between the neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield and the neurologist/psychiatrist Stanley Cobb.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Noble</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-9061</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Noble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-9061</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Does consciousness cause collapse?
Here are a couple recent attempts to discern this&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No they don&#039;t.

Your basic confusion stems from the &quot;common sense&quot; idea of an observation and that from physics.

An observation is made using a photon or another quantum entity.

The mind does not send out a &quot;mindon&quot; or any other imaginary part of conciousness to make the observation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Does consciousness cause collapse?<br />
Here are a couple recent attempts to discern this</p></blockquote>
<p>No they don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Your basic confusion stems from the &#8220;common sense&#8221; idea of an observation and that from physics.</p>
<p>An observation is made using a photon or another quantum entity.</p>
<p>The mind does not send out a &#8220;mindon&#8221; or any other imaginary part of conciousness to make the observation.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Thomson</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8957</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-8957</guid>
		<description>sonic said:
&quot;What I meant earlier was that if you have two phenomena (a and b) that are strongly correlated you have these possibilities.
a causes b.
b causes a.
c causes both a and b.&quot;

Other possibilities include:
--a is identical to b (e.g., lightning is correlated with electrostatic discharge of a certain sort).
--a influences b and vice-versa (e.g., voltage across a neuron and current through a potassium channel)

I went through this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=438#comment-7750&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonic said:<br />
&#8220;What I meant earlier was that if you have two phenomena (a and b) that are strongly correlated you have these possibilities.<br />
a causes b.<br />
b causes a.<br />
c causes both a and b.&#8221;</p>
<p>Other possibilities include:<br />
&#8211;a is identical to b (e.g., lightning is correlated with electrostatic discharge of a certain sort).<br />
&#8211;a influences b and vice-versa (e.g., voltage across a neuron and current through a potassium channel)</p>
<p>I went through this <a href="http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=438#comment-7750" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: cwfong</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8883</link>
		<dc:creator>cwfong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-8883</guid>
		<description>sonic writes:
&quot;What I meant earlier was that if you have two phenomena (a and b) that are strongly correlated you have these possibilities.
a causes b.
b causes a.
c causes both a and b.&quot;

Except we often find that a and b have no meaningful common cause, and even when they do, have no meaningful common effects or purposes.

Science is about probability  You have introduced nothing to your consciousness scenario that makes being even partly a &quot;cause&quot; of brain and/or some ethereal mind either probable or even possible from a rational standpoint.  You propose no mechanism, no operative structure, no suggestion of how we might test for it&#039;s substantive existence, etc., etc., etc.

The present understanding of consciousness as phenomena generated by our sensory apparatus is rational, reliable, and in that sense not only possibly but probably &quot;true.&quot;

Our logic is quite capable of determining an exceptional degree of probability for virtually any conceivable proposition.  What we lack is the capacity to conceive of every possible scenario.  Which may explain why some come up with the essentially impossible as a filler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonic writes:<br />
&#8220;What I meant earlier was that if you have two phenomena (a and b) that are strongly correlated you have these possibilities.<br />
a causes b.<br />
b causes a.<br />
c causes both a and b.&#8221;</p>
<p>Except we often find that a and b have no meaningful common cause, and even when they do, have no meaningful common effects or purposes.</p>
<p>Science is about probability  You have introduced nothing to your consciousness scenario that makes being even partly a &#8220;cause&#8221; of brain and/or some ethereal mind either probable or even possible from a rational standpoint.  You propose no mechanism, no operative structure, no suggestion of how we might test for it&#8217;s substantive existence, etc., etc., etc.</p>
<p>The present understanding of consciousness as phenomena generated by our sensory apparatus is rational, reliable, and in that sense not only possibly but probably &#8220;true.&#8221;</p>
<p>Our logic is quite capable of determining an exceptional degree of probability for virtually any conceivable proposition.  What we lack is the capacity to conceive of every possible scenario.  Which may explain why some come up with the essentially impossible as a filler.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8866</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-8866</guid>
		<description>Jim V-
Does consciousness cause collapse?
Here are a couple recent attempts to discern this--

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640

Apr 20, 2007
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality

Some physicists are uncomfortable with the idea that all individual quantum events are innately random. This is why many have proposed more complete theories, which suggest that events are at least partially governed by extra &quot;hidden variables&quot;. Now physicists from Austria claim to have performed an experiment that rules out a broad class of hidden-variables theories that focus on realism -- giving the uneasy consequence that reality does not exist when we are not observing it (Nature 446 871).

For more on this try:
http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529

For a different type of experiment try-
http://www.mindmatter.de/mmpdf/bierman.pdf


cwfong-
No problems.  Emergence is a concept that I know and love.  I do get tired of the &#039;emergence in the gaps&#039;, however.
What I meant earlier was that if you have two phenomena (a and b) that are strongly correlated you have these possibilities.
a causes b.
b causes a.
c causes both a and b.
So it is not unreasonable (that is it is inside of the logical reasoning we commonly use) to say that it is possible a &#039;consciousness&#039; is the cause of both brain and mind.  
Of course it is also possible that our logic and current understanding is not fully up to the task of figuring out the truth ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim V-<br />
Does consciousness cause collapse?<br />
Here are a couple recent attempts to discern this&#8211;</p>
<p><a href="http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640" rel="nofollow">http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640</a></p>
<p>Apr 20, 2007<br />
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality</p>
<p>Some physicists are uncomfortable with the idea that all individual quantum events are innately random. This is why many have proposed more complete theories, which suggest that events are at least partially governed by extra &#8220;hidden variables&#8221;. Now physicists from Austria claim to have performed an experiment that rules out a broad class of hidden-variables theories that focus on realism &#8212; giving the uneasy consequence that reality does not exist when we are not observing it (Nature 446 871).</p>
<p>For more on this try:<br />
<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529</a></p>
<p>For a different type of experiment try-<br />
<a href="http://www.mindmatter.de/mmpdf/bierman.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.mindmatter.de/mmpdf/bierman.pdf</a></p>
<p>cwfong-<br />
No problems.  Emergence is a concept that I know and love.  I do get tired of the &#8216;emergence in the gaps&#8217;, however.<br />
What I meant earlier was that if you have two phenomena (a and b) that are strongly correlated you have these possibilities.<br />
a causes b.<br />
b causes a.<br />
c causes both a and b.<br />
So it is not unreasonable (that is it is inside of the logical reasoning we commonly use) to say that it is possible a &#8216;consciousness&#8217; is the cause of both brain and mind.<br />
Of course it is also possible that our logic and current understanding is not fully up to the task of figuring out the truth <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: JimV</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8859</link>
		<dc:creator>JimV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-8859</guid>
		<description>I once asked Dr. Sean Carroll (the physicist) in a comment over at &quot;Cosmic Variance&quot; whether QM interpretation has any requirement for a conscious observer to &quot;collapse&quot; a wave function.  I did not get a reply, perhaps because the question was too elementary for that blog, or worded poorly.  My sense from posts there and other reading was that it did not.  My great thanks go to Chris Noble (whose comments I have appreciated many times, here and elsewhere) for confirming that impression explicitly.

(I also proposed a test to confirm my impression to at least first level.  Run the classical two-slit diffraction test using automated equipment to count the photons a) going into each slit and b) hitting the target screen - but have the slit-counting turned on or off for different trials according to some random function whose results are unknown to the experimenters.  Prior to looking at the screen-count results for the trials, erase all slit-counts from computer memory, and  see whether the proportion of interference results to non-interference results matchs the expected statistics of the random function.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once asked Dr. Sean Carroll (the physicist) in a comment over at &#8220;Cosmic Variance&#8221; whether QM interpretation has any requirement for a conscious observer to &#8220;collapse&#8221; a wave function.  I did not get a reply, perhaps because the question was too elementary for that blog, or worded poorly.  My sense from posts there and other reading was that it did not.  My great thanks go to Chris Noble (whose comments I have appreciated many times, here and elsewhere) for confirming that impression explicitly.</p>
<p>(I also proposed a test to confirm my impression to at least first level.  Run the classical two-slit diffraction test using automated equipment to count the photons a) going into each slit and b) hitting the target screen &#8211; but have the slit-counting turned on or off for different trials according to some random function whose results are unknown to the experimenters.  Prior to looking at the screen-count results for the trials, erase all slit-counts from computer memory, and  see whether the proportion of interference results to non-interference results matchs the expected statistics of the random function.)</p>
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		<title>By: cwfong</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8827</link>
		<dc:creator>cwfong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 06:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Demonstrating what?  Differences in degree or some magical insertion of cosmic consciousness that differentiated us from the beasts forever?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Demonstrating what?  Differences in degree or some magical insertion of cosmic consciousness that differentiated us from the beasts forever?</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8825</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Humans:  Brain functions include reasoning, judgment,abstraction, ability to analyze complexities, and communicative language skills.
Lower animals:  Brain functions are difficult to differentiate; language is limited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humans:  Brain functions include reasoning, judgment,abstraction, ability to analyze complexities, and communicative language skills.<br />
Lower animals:  Brain functions are difficult to differentiate; language is limited.</p>
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		<title>By: cwfong</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8824</link>
		<dc:creator>cwfong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And sonic, I apologize for not having found any book review of the subject that would have been a more concise if not more credible source of information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And sonic, I apologize for not having found any book review of the subject that would have been a more concise if not more credible source of information.</p>
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		<title>By: cwfong</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/sorry-egnor-your-pillars-are-still-shattered/comment-page-2/#comment-8822</link>
		<dc:creator>cwfong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=456#comment-8822</guid>
		<description>sonic, as usual you make assumptions from the littlest degree of evidence.  The concept of emergence may be presently beyond your ken.  Check this out:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

After that, you might try to tackle this one:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonic, as usual you make assumptions from the littlest degree of evidence.  The concept of emergence may be presently beyond your ken.  Check this out:  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence</a></p>
<p>After that, you might try to tackle this one:<br />
<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/" rel="nofollow">http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/</a></p>
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