Comments on: Some Follow Up On Vaccines http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/ Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking Mon, 20 May 2013 21:43:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: pec http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2884 pec Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:08:35 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2884 "you come here looking for fights." Well maybe I am guilty of that sometimes. It's more fun to argue than just keep saying "yay, me too!" But my real motive is to learn by exchanging ideas. I sincerely believe that we should be exposed to alternative ideas and that we learn more from people we disagree with. “you come here looking for fights.”

Well maybe I am guilty of that sometimes. It’s more fun to argue than just keep saying “yay, me too!”

But my real motive is to learn by exchanging ideas. I sincerely believe that we should be exposed to alternative ideas and that we learn more from people we disagree with.

]]> By: Jim Shaver http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2870 Jim Shaver Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:33:03 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2870 pec: <blockquote>Admitting that something might be true cannot be a logical fallacy!</blockquote> Logical fallacy: Special pleading Okay, okay, pec, before you get mad, brother, I admit I'm just ribbing you now. (Okay, I was ribbing you the first time, too.) You really should concede, though, that you come here looking for fights. After all, your reputation precedes you. Anyway, thanks for the lively discussion. :) pec:

Admitting that something might be true cannot be a logical fallacy!

Logical fallacy: Special pleading

Okay, okay, pec, before you get mad, brother, I admit I’m just ribbing you now. (Okay, I was ribbing you the first time, too.) You really should concede, though, that you come here looking for fights. After all, your reputation precedes you. Anyway, thanks for the lively discussion. :)

]]> By: pec http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2862 pec Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:58:49 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2862 Jim Shaver, I said "isn't it possible." Admitting that something might be true cannot be a logical fallacy! Jim Shaver,

I said “isn’t it possible.” Admitting that something might be true cannot be a logical fallacy!

]]> By: Luke http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2858 Luke Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:13:12 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2858 I think Clinton and Obama have both shown themselves in many ways to be amenable to science and reason. When I read their statements, I see a fair amount of political hedging, but no blatant belief that vaccines cause autism. It seems to me that leaving the door open to research is a low-cost political option to placate a questioner who is likely passionate about the issue. I also suspect that if Obama were presented with the scientific evidence on this issue, he would revise his statement that it is "inconclusive". I think Clinton and Obama have both shown themselves in many ways to be amenable to science and reason. When I read their statements, I see a fair amount of political hedging, but no blatant belief that vaccines cause autism. It seems to me that leaving the door open to research is a low-cost political option to placate a questioner who is likely passionate about the issue. I also suspect that if Obama were presented with the scientific evidence on this issue, he would revise his statement that it is “inconclusive”.

]]> By: snarla http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2856 snarla Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:02:03 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2856 I have great respect for science and research, logic and reason, but if so many parents are noticing that their children are suffering debilitating side-effects in connection with vaccines doesn't that warrant more investigation? I won't go so far to say it "causes" autism, but obviously enough people are noticing a pattern that raises eyebrows, and isn't that what science is: invesitgation spawned by and conclusions drawn from observations? Besides, not everything declared to be true by medical science is true. I know that my pharmacist and various doctors will swear up and down that there are no differences between generic and brand medications. OK, maybe there is no difference in the active ingredient but if you swap out my celexa with citalopram I will spout blood rectally like a foutain within a week. Same if you swap my Imuran for Azathioprine. If my mom takes the generic version of her blood pressure medication she gets heart palpitations. While the FDA seems to feel differently, I would have appreciated some kind of warning about potential reactions to the inactive ingredients in generic medications before trying any of them. I'm certainly not anti-vaccine, but I think doctors should be doing more to educate their patients of the risks involved with them, or any medication or treatment really, so that the patient may make an educated decision in their own interest. I don't think it's right to make claims that vaccines cause autism, but I don't think it's fair to lean too far in the opposite direction either at this point. I have great respect for science and research, logic and reason, but if so many parents are noticing that their children are suffering debilitating side-effects in connection with vaccines doesn’t that warrant more investigation? I won’t go so far to say it “causes” autism, but obviously enough people are noticing a pattern that raises eyebrows, and isn’t that what science is: invesitgation spawned by and conclusions drawn from observations?
Besides, not everything declared to be true by medical science is true. I know that my pharmacist and various doctors will swear up and down that there are no differences between generic and brand medications. OK, maybe there is no difference in the active ingredient but if you swap out my celexa with citalopram I will spout blood rectally like a foutain within a week. Same if you swap my Imuran for Azathioprine. If my mom takes the generic version of her blood pressure medication she gets heart palpitations. While the FDA seems to feel differently, I would have appreciated some kind of warning about potential reactions to the inactive ingredients in generic medications before trying any of them. I’m certainly not anti-vaccine, but I think doctors should be doing more to educate their patients of the risks involved with them, or any medication or treatment really, so that the patient may make an educated decision in their own interest. I don’t think it’s right to make claims that vaccines cause autism, but I don’t think it’s fair to lean too far in the opposite direction either at this point.

]]> By: pec http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2854 pec Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:51:52 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2854 Oh I just realized Dr. Novella finally posted something about the Merck debacle. I guess he is not as blindly infatuated with the drug companies as I thought. Oh I just realized Dr. Novella finally posted something about the Merck debacle. I guess he is not as blindly infatuated with the drug companies as I thought.

]]> By: pec http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2847 pec Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:42:56 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2847 How exactly is the evidence conclusive? Autism rates continued to increase after vaccines no longer contained mercury? Isn't it possible that mercury wasn't the problem? Isn't it possible there is something in some vaccines that harms some children? Isn't it possible that the question has not been conclusively answered? Don't you think a problem this serious might deserve more research? You are not being scientific; you are being dogmatic as usual. You think people are stupid, even highly educated presidential candidates are stupid. Everyone is stupid unless they define and interpret science your way: Drugs are good, the more the better, we can trust the kind and compassionate drug companies, drug research is always honest, Merck probably didn't bribe researchers to sign their names on its faked Vioxx studies. How exactly is the evidence conclusive? Autism rates continued to increase after vaccines no longer contained mercury? Isn’t it possible that mercury wasn’t the problem? Isn’t it possible there is something in some vaccines that harms some children? Isn’t it possible that the question has not been conclusively answered? Don’t you think a problem this serious might deserve more research?

You are not being scientific; you are being dogmatic as usual. You think people are stupid, even highly educated presidential candidates are stupid. Everyone is stupid unless they define and interpret science your way: Drugs are good, the more the better, we can trust the kind and compassionate drug companies, drug research is always honest, Merck probably didn’t bribe researchers to sign their names on its faked Vioxx studies.

]]> By: MKandefer http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2845 MKandefer Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:30:44 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2845 Of course, then there is this coverage of the issue [1], where Obama supports research into the issue. ------------------------------------------ Do you think vaccines should be investigated as a possible cause of autism? I believe that the next president must restore confidence and open communication with the American people. This includes environmental policies and government funded research. An Obama administration will go where the science and the facts lead us, whether it is about climate change or toxic heavy metals in our environment. Would you support a large-scale federal study of the differences in health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups Experience has taught that effective medical research must be "large-scale" and well funded. I believe Americans should know must know the health effects that caused by the presence of mercury in vaccines. I will also support an examination of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program, a program designed to compensate those injured by vaccinations. ------------------------------------------ I'm less skeptical having read that. [1] - http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/hillary_clinton_and_barack_obama_descend.php Of course, then there is this coverage of the issue [1], where Obama supports research into the issue.

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Do you think vaccines should be investigated as a possible cause of autism?

I believe that the next president must restore confidence and open communication with the American people. This includes environmental policies and government funded research. An Obama administration will go where the science and the facts lead us, whether it is about climate change or toxic heavy metals in our environment.

Would you support a large-scale federal study of the differences in health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups

Experience has taught that effective medical research must be “large-scale” and well funded. I believe Americans should know must know the health effects that caused by the presence of mercury in vaccines. I will also support an examination of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation program, a program designed to compensate those injured by vaccinations.

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I’m less skeptical having read that.

[1] – http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/hillary_clinton_and_barack_obama_descend.php

]]> By: Jim Shaver http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2841 Jim Shaver Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:10:52 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2841 I second the nomination. We may have to start our own political party. How 'bout the <i>Logic And Reason</i> party? I second the nomination.

We may have to start our own political party. How ’bout the Logic And Reason party?

]]> By: ellazimm http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-follow-up-on-vaccines/comment-page-1/#comment-2834 ellazimm Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:04:54 +0000 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=279#comment-2834 Dr Steve: You can always vote for Pat Paulsen . . . he is running again isn't he? Unless you'd rather have a go yourself. Dr Steve: You can always vote for Pat Paulsen . . . he is running again isn’t he? Unless you’d rather have a go yourself.

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