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	<title>Comments on: Some Bad Reporting about Archaeopteryx</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: SteveA</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-36085</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 17:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-36085</guid>
		<description>&quot;Creationists, however, are likely to latch onto the terrible reporting about this new analysis as if it destroys one of the “icons of evolution.”

Is the usual BS news-cycle. The media take some messy science, compresses it down to a few basic immutable &#039;factual diamonds&#039; then starts shrieking when new evidence comes along to refine the story. 

For them it&#039;s a win-win situation, the &#039;facts&#039; make a good headline and so does the &#039;controversy&#039;. 

Support your friendly neighborhood science bloggers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Creationists, however, are likely to latch onto the terrible reporting about this new analysis as if it destroys one of the “icons of evolution.”</p>
<p>Is the usual BS news-cycle. The media take some messy science, compresses it down to a few basic immutable &#8216;factual diamonds&#8217; then starts shrieking when new evidence comes along to refine the story. </p>
<p>For them it&#8217;s a win-win situation, the &#8216;facts&#8217; make a good headline and so does the &#8216;controversy&#8217;. </p>
<p>Support your friendly neighborhood science bloggers.</p>
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		<title>By: QuestionEverything</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-36033</link>
		<dc:creator>QuestionEverything</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 10:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-36033</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a shame that a brilliant discovery has to be subverted by idiots with ideological agendas. The media don&#039;t do any favours in these instances either. It&#039;s like these creationist sympathisers have their fingers on the trigger just waiting for a scientific discovery that they can twist to incorrectly validate their beliefs.

Mind you, as Steve shows, misconceptions are often a chance to explain what is really going on, so thanks Steve.

Archaeopteryx is still the reigning champions of fossil finds and we knew it would be the only fossil to fill the bird-dinosaur transitions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a shame that a brilliant discovery has to be subverted by idiots with ideological agendas. The media don&#8217;t do any favours in these instances either. It&#8217;s like these creationist sympathisers have their fingers on the trigger just waiting for a scientific discovery that they can twist to incorrectly validate their beliefs.</p>
<p>Mind you, as Steve shows, misconceptions are often a chance to explain what is really going on, so thanks Steve.</p>
<p>Archaeopteryx is still the reigning champions of fossil finds and we knew it would be the only fossil to fill the bird-dinosaur transitions.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob-bear</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-36032</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob-bear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 06:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-36032</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know a lot about Archaeopteryx, except that my grandson and I read about it in books that a seven year old can understand. I do, however, understand your point that &quot;evolution is also not a linear process but a messy branching bushy process,&quot; even when it is portrayed to be somewhat linear, when you see the &quot;lines&quot; in books. We have built a lot of ideas on partial information, as in the case of Iguanodon (where his thumb and nose were initially confused). But, clearly, it is some kind of transitional creature. Even a believer like me can understand that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know a lot about Archaeopteryx, except that my grandson and I read about it in books that a seven year old can understand. I do, however, understand your point that &#8220;evolution is also not a linear process but a messy branching bushy process,&#8221; even when it is portrayed to be somewhat linear, when you see the &#8220;lines&#8221; in books. We have built a lot of ideas on partial information, as in the case of Iguanodon (where his thumb and nose were initially confused). But, clearly, it is some kind of transitional creature. Even a believer like me can understand that.</p>
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		<title>By: locutusbrg</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-36005</link>
		<dc:creator>locutusbrg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-36005</guid>
		<description>It is the uncertainties of evolution that make it good science, not the reverse. Otherwise it would be like the special pleadings the creationists use to discount evolution. &quot;Transitional fossils were placed by the Devil to confuse us about the truth in the bible.&quot;
 
If there is no room for refinement of knowledge, it is dogma not science. Often the media tries to present the opposite, that science is dogma. In my opinion that misrepresentation is the reason why some lay persons belief that science is an arrogant modern religion like Scientology. 
It is not just news reporting that misfires, science as arrogant dogma is also a reoccurring theme in entertainment as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is the uncertainties of evolution that make it good science, not the reverse. Otherwise it would be like the special pleadings the creationists use to discount evolution. &#8220;Transitional fossils were placed by the Devil to confuse us about the truth in the bible.&#8221;</p>
<p>If there is no room for refinement of knowledge, it is dogma not science. Often the media tries to present the opposite, that science is dogma. In my opinion that misrepresentation is the reason why some lay persons belief that science is an arrogant modern religion like Scientology.<br />
It is not just news reporting that misfires, science as arrogant dogma is also a reoccurring theme in entertainment as well.</p>
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		<title>By: rezistnzisfutl</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-36003</link>
		<dc:creator>rezistnzisfutl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 16:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-36003</guid>
		<description>Yea all you have to do to see what&#039;s happening with this is go to one of the Yahoo or LiveScience articles&#039; comments sections.  As predicted, the creationists are running away with it as if this singlehandedly debunkes Theory of Evolution and evolutionary biologist finally agree that their god actually did it, validating what they knew all along.

Shining examples as products of a combination of the US education system and fundamentalist religion.  Creationists are a neverending source of amusement and awesome displays of sheer and utter jaw-dropping ignorance and scientific illiteracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea all you have to do to see what&#8217;s happening with this is go to one of the Yahoo or LiveScience articles&#8217; comments sections.  As predicted, the creationists are running away with it as if this singlehandedly debunkes Theory of Evolution and evolutionary biologist finally agree that their god actually did it, validating what they knew all along.</p>
<p>Shining examples as products of a combination of the US education system and fundamentalist religion.  Creationists are a neverending source of amusement and awesome displays of sheer and utter jaw-dropping ignorance and scientific illiteracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Novella</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-35999</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Novella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-35999</guid>
		<description>cc - you are exactly correct.

Jim - That&#039;s basically what I am saying, but it is more complex than that, and I deliberately hedged because right now we just don&#039;t know. This is what I think we can say based upon current evidence (but would love to chat with an actual expert about it).

Feathers developed very early in the theropod line. There are now many genera of feathered theropods. 

These feathers developed to various degrees. In some lines feathers developed the typically anatomy of flight feathers - similar to modern birds.

In some of those lines actual flight evolved. It may have developed once, or more than once. If more than once, then it probably developed from theropod genera that already had feathers compatible with flight. 

To make things more complicated, some species may have secondarily lost the ability to fly. 

Microraptor is one candidate for an independent evolution of flight. It has four wings. From my reading it seems like this is still an open question. 

So - I don&#039;t think we know if Archaeopterxy branched off from the line that lead to birds before or after the common flying ancestor. But even if it was before and it evolved flight independently, it was probably close to the split because it shares &quot;modern&quot; flight feathers with all flying species. 

Also - &quot;flight&quot; is not a black and white thing either. It&#039;s a pretty broad continuum. Archaopteryx was a very bad flyer, by modern bird standards, and was definitely not far along the path to flight. I have read some dispute about whether it could sustain flight or not. But I think the consensus is it could fly to some degree. 

The picture is still incomplete enough that there are likely more surprises in store.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cc &#8211; you are exactly correct.</p>
<p>Jim &#8211; That&#8217;s basically what I am saying, but it is more complex than that, and I deliberately hedged because right now we just don&#8217;t know. This is what I think we can say based upon current evidence (but would love to chat with an actual expert about it).</p>
<p>Feathers developed very early in the theropod line. There are now many genera of feathered theropods. </p>
<p>These feathers developed to various degrees. In some lines feathers developed the typically anatomy of flight feathers &#8211; similar to modern birds.</p>
<p>In some of those lines actual flight evolved. It may have developed once, or more than once. If more than once, then it probably developed from theropod genera that already had feathers compatible with flight. </p>
<p>To make things more complicated, some species may have secondarily lost the ability to fly. </p>
<p>Microraptor is one candidate for an independent evolution of flight. It has four wings. From my reading it seems like this is still an open question. </p>
<p>So &#8211; I don&#8217;t think we know if Archaeopterxy branched off from the line that lead to birds before or after the common flying ancestor. But even if it was before and it evolved flight independently, it was probably close to the split because it shares &#8220;modern&#8221; flight feathers with all flying species. </p>
<p>Also &#8211; &#8220;flight&#8221; is not a black and white thing either. It&#8217;s a pretty broad continuum. Archaopteryx was a very bad flyer, by modern bird standards, and was definitely not far along the path to flight. I have read some dispute about whether it could sustain flight or not. But I think the consensus is it could fly to some degree. </p>
<p>The picture is still incomplete enough that there are likely more surprises in store.</p>
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		<title>By: ccbowers</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-35998</link>
		<dc:creator>ccbowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-35998</guid>
		<description>&quot;The problem with this reasoning is that we almost never find specimens that are literal direct ancestors to extant species&quot;

This seems to me to be a result of a bias towards extant species, as if extinct species don&#039;t count.  This may be related to the incorrect perception that evolution is directional and progressive, and that this resulted in the animals we have today (and humans being the ultimate endpoint).  It is not surprising that the people critical of evolution have this perspective and lack of understanding</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The problem with this reasoning is that we almost never find specimens that are literal direct ancestors to extant species&#8221;</p>
<p>This seems to me to be a result of a bias towards extant species, as if extinct species don&#8217;t count.  This may be related to the incorrect perception that evolution is directional and progressive, and that this resulted in the animals we have today (and humans being the ultimate endpoint).  It is not surprising that the people critical of evolution have this perspective and lack of understanding</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Shaver</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-35997</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Shaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-35997</guid>
		<description>So, Steve, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying about where Archaeopteryx fits on the evolutionary tree.  Although you suggested that it is possible, I think you are saying that it is unlikely that Archaeopteryx belongs to a branch that developed flight capability independently of the branch that lead to extant birds.  I think you are saying that, while no modern descendants of Arhaeopteryx exist, Archaeopteryx and extant birds most likely share a common ancestor that developed flight capability.  I.e., from the theropod dinosaurs, first came a branch with flight-capable wings, followed by two (of many) separate branches, one that included Archaeopteryx (a branch that eventually died out) and one that lead to birds (including all modern birds).

Do I have that right, in your opinion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Steve, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying about where Archaeopteryx fits on the evolutionary tree.  Although you suggested that it is possible, I think you are saying that it is unlikely that Archaeopteryx belongs to a branch that developed flight capability independently of the branch that lead to extant birds.  I think you are saying that, while no modern descendants of Arhaeopteryx exist, Archaeopteryx and extant birds most likely share a common ancestor that developed flight capability.  I.e., from the theropod dinosaurs, first came a branch with flight-capable wings, followed by two (of many) separate branches, one that included Archaeopteryx (a branch that eventually died out) and one that lead to birds (including all modern birds).</p>
<p>Do I have that right, in your opinion?</p>
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		<title>By: debunkcreation</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-35996</link>
		<dc:creator>debunkcreation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-35996</guid>
		<description>These sensation-driven journalists seem to swoop on anything about evolution that introduces new theories and evidence and start with the usual dumb claims &quot;Did Darwin Get It Wrong&quot; or &quot;Our Ideas of Evolution are Turned Upside-Down&quot; when all that has happened is a fossil was re-classified or we changed a branch in a clade or something. Just because some details have changed doesn&#039;t mean the entire theory is suddenly &quot;wrong&quot;. This is a huge misconception about evolution and indeed about science in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These sensation-driven journalists seem to swoop on anything about evolution that introduces new theories and evidence and start with the usual dumb claims &#8220;Did Darwin Get It Wrong&#8221; or &#8220;Our Ideas of Evolution are Turned Upside-Down&#8221; when all that has happened is a fossil was re-classified or we changed a branch in a clade or something. Just because some details have changed doesn&#8217;t mean the entire theory is suddenly &#8220;wrong&#8221;. This is a huge misconception about evolution and indeed about science in general.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikola</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/some-bad-reporting-about-archaeopteryx/comment-page-1/#comment-35995</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3461#comment-35995</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t trust them aussies, eh?

Thanks for the write-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t trust them aussies, eh?</p>
<p>Thanks for the write-up.</p>
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