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	<title>Comments on: RNA World</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: Dave S.</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12384</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=541#comment-12384</guid>
		<description>&quot;ID has been over-simplified for the public, so that it appears similar to old-fashioned biblical creationism.&quot;

That&#039;s only because it is. The writings of the leading ID advocates make that clear again and again. See the Dover transcripts for many examples. The notions they use are all straight out of the Creationist playbook. They just try to hide the overtly religious bits, with rather poor overall results.

&quot;It is actually sophisticated and scientific, if also somewhat philosophical.&quot;

It&#039;s not terribly sophisticated, and it certainly isn&#039;t scientific, unless you re-define what you mean by scientific.

&quot;The question of whether the universe is dead or alive is relevant to science. The current trend in science is to assume the universe is non-living, mindless.&quot;

We already know parts of the universe are alive. Does the universe itself reproduce.

&quot;People like Dawkins insist that a non-living universe can generate life, which evolves because of natural selection. He has no evidence for that view, but his arguments are convincing to many people.&quot;

Sure he has. He has this universe.

&quot;And we do NOT have a plausible explanation for the origin of life by random mechanistic processes.&quot;

And do we have a plausible explanation by non-mechanistic processes?

&quot;Science does not have to be materialist, but it has tended to become materialist in recent decades.&quot;

It has to be if you actually want results. And it has been this way for a few centuries, not decades. Before that it was non-materialistic, but resultwise, we didn&#039;t learn so much.

&quot;Atheism and materialism are promoted in many science classes, even though they are philosophies not based on any scientific evidence.&quot;

Every science class. Clearly the atomic theory of matter is atheistic and materialistic. 

&quot;Ideas from alternative medicine that depend on a theory of life energy are scorned because life energy cannot possibly exist in a mechanistic, non-living universe.&quot;

No, they are scorned because their proponents are unable to provide any evidence that they actually work. Personal testimonials are the main &#039;evidence&#039;, but that&#039;s a pretty thin gruel. 

&quot;So promising avenues of research are blocked and minds are closed.&quot;

By all means let you and others like minded show us the results from using this amazing non-materialistic science. Publish in your own journals. Or do we just have to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;ID has been over-simplified for the public, so that it appears similar to old-fashioned biblical creationism.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s only because it is. The writings of the leading ID advocates make that clear again and again. See the Dover transcripts for many examples. The notions they use are all straight out of the Creationist playbook. They just try to hide the overtly religious bits, with rather poor overall results.</p>
<p>&#8220;It is actually sophisticated and scientific, if also somewhat philosophical.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not terribly sophisticated, and it certainly isn&#8217;t scientific, unless you re-define what you mean by scientific.</p>
<p>&#8220;The question of whether the universe is dead or alive is relevant to science. The current trend in science is to assume the universe is non-living, mindless.&#8221;</p>
<p>We already know parts of the universe are alive. Does the universe itself reproduce.</p>
<p>&#8220;People like Dawkins insist that a non-living universe can generate life, which evolves because of natural selection. He has no evidence for that view, but his arguments are convincing to many people.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure he has. He has this universe.</p>
<p>&#8220;And we do NOT have a plausible explanation for the origin of life by random mechanistic processes.&#8221;</p>
<p>And do we have a plausible explanation by non-mechanistic processes?</p>
<p>&#8220;Science does not have to be materialist, but it has tended to become materialist in recent decades.&#8221;</p>
<p>It has to be if you actually want results. And it has been this way for a few centuries, not decades. Before that it was non-materialistic, but resultwise, we didn&#8217;t learn so much.</p>
<p>&#8220;Atheism and materialism are promoted in many science classes, even though they are philosophies not based on any scientific evidence.&#8221;</p>
<p>Every science class. Clearly the atomic theory of matter is atheistic and materialistic. </p>
<p>&#8220;Ideas from alternative medicine that depend on a theory of life energy are scorned because life energy cannot possibly exist in a mechanistic, non-living universe.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, they are scorned because their proponents are unable to provide any evidence that they actually work. Personal testimonials are the main &#8216;evidence&#8217;, but that&#8217;s a pretty thin gruel. </p>
<p>&#8220;So promising avenues of research are blocked and minds are closed.&#8221;</p>
<p>By all means let you and others like minded show us the results from using this amazing non-materialistic science. Publish in your own journals. Or do we just have to believe.</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12329</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 23:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=541#comment-12329</guid>
		<description>Part of the confusion here might be the result of this statement in the initial post: &#039;What the researchers set out to do was explore possible chemical pathways that could spontaneously lead to RNA in “prebiotically plausible conditions.” &#039;

I think the use of the word &quot;spontaneously&quot; misrepresents the expectations involved in this particular effort.  They are clearly looking for ways that an assembly of materials will be predisposed to make a step toward a self-replication process and they don&#039;t expect this to be spontaneous.
In their conclusion they refer to conditions which may have facilitated such predisposition, stating:  &quot;- a number of situations could have arisen that would result in the conditions of heating and progressive dehydration followed by cooling, rehydration and ultraviolet irradiation.&quot;  This being an example of the motivating forces they understood would be needed beyond the assemblage of the right materials in the correct sequence and stages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the confusion here might be the result of this statement in the initial post: &#8216;What the researchers set out to do was explore possible chemical pathways that could spontaneously lead to RNA in “prebiotically plausible conditions.” &#8216;</p>
<p>I think the use of the word &#8220;spontaneously&#8221; misrepresents the expectations involved in this particular effort.  They are clearly looking for ways that an assembly of materials will be predisposed to make a step toward a self-replication process and they don&#8217;t expect this to be spontaneous.<br />
In their conclusion they refer to conditions which may have facilitated such predisposition, stating:  &#8220;- a number of situations could have arisen that would result in the conditions of heating and progressive dehydration followed by cooling, rehydration and ultraviolet irradiation.&#8221;  This being an example of the motivating forces they understood would be needed beyond the assemblage of the right materials in the correct sequence and stages.</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12327</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 17:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=541#comment-12327</guid>
		<description>Bacteria doesn&#039;t choose to exist, it exists to choose.  I&#039;m not referring to how you might detect a sign of life from your experiment, I&#039;m talking about fashioning the experiment so that the results have a reason to act on their own rather than simply react.
You of course will look for a chemical reaction, but you will want to produce one that reacts to stimuli through it&#039;s own choice making apparatus.  If you don&#039;t plan for that to happen - planning being integral to any hypothesis  - then you are in effect hoping for some sort of happy accident to bring your mixture of goo to life.  
Or perhaps your plan is to zap it with some motivating force, hoping somehow that force will engrain itself in the goo. Which is of course what some scientists have already attempted with electrical charges, etc.  Making no more than a goo battery that seemed alive until it needed recharging.  
And that&#039;s gets to my point here - that you have to contemplate an experiment that zaps the goo in such a way that it recharges itself when the initial zap of energy runs out.  Goo that not only needs to recharge but chooses to recharge.  Then you have to have some source of energy avalable that it can choose to find on it&#039;s own without you choosing to do the recharging for it.

As has been said before, life forms are molecular structures that have acquired the capacity to seek out and compete for energy.  

Your experiment has to contemplate a way to give your goo that capacity. The difficulty in designing such an experiment is of course enormous. 

And we haven&#039;t even begin to consider the goo&#039;s potential for learning from experience, discovering and acting on the need to replicate in some fashion, etc., etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bacteria doesn&#8217;t choose to exist, it exists to choose.  I&#8217;m not referring to how you might detect a sign of life from your experiment, I&#8217;m talking about fashioning the experiment so that the results have a reason to act on their own rather than simply react.<br />
You of course will look for a chemical reaction, but you will want to produce one that reacts to stimuli through it&#8217;s own choice making apparatus.  If you don&#8217;t plan for that to happen &#8211; planning being integral to any hypothesis  &#8211; then you are in effect hoping for some sort of happy accident to bring your mixture of goo to life.<br />
Or perhaps your plan is to zap it with some motivating force, hoping somehow that force will engrain itself in the goo. Which is of course what some scientists have already attempted with electrical charges, etc.  Making no more than a goo battery that seemed alive until it needed recharging.<br />
And that&#8217;s gets to my point here &#8211; that you have to contemplate an experiment that zaps the goo in such a way that it recharges itself when the initial zap of energy runs out.  Goo that not only needs to recharge but chooses to recharge.  Then you have to have some source of energy avalable that it can choose to find on it&#8217;s own without you choosing to do the recharging for it.</p>
<p>As has been said before, life forms are molecular structures that have acquired the capacity to seek out and compete for energy.  </p>
<p>Your experiment has to contemplate a way to give your goo that capacity. The difficulty in designing such an experiment is of course enormous. </p>
<p>And we haven&#8217;t even begin to consider the goo&#8217;s potential for learning from experience, discovering and acting on the need to replicate in some fashion, etc., etc.</p>
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		<title>By: sethv</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12321</link>
		<dc:creator>sethv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 12:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=541#comment-12321</guid>
		<description>artfulD, I don&#039;t think bacteria chooses to exist any more than water chooses to flow downhill, or any more than any of us chose to be born. And yes, if you want to say that bacteria is not alive I haven&#039;t provided a philosophical basis for saying otherwise. That just seems arbitrary to me.

And the way to determine that the result of my experiment was not alive would be by measuring something (i.e. it doesn&#039;t reproduce when you put it in a petri dish). If the criteria was somebody&#039;s strong feeling that there was more to life than predictable chemical reactions, that wouldn&#039;t be worth much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>artfulD, I don&#8217;t think bacteria chooses to exist any more than water chooses to flow downhill, or any more than any of us chose to be born. And yes, if you want to say that bacteria is not alive I haven&#8217;t provided a philosophical basis for saying otherwise. That just seems arbitrary to me.</p>
<p>And the way to determine that the result of my experiment was not alive would be by measuring something (i.e. it doesn&#8217;t reproduce when you put it in a petri dish). If the criteria was somebody&#8217;s strong feeling that there was more to life than predictable chemical reactions, that wouldn&#8217;t be worth much.</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12315</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 22:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=541#comment-12315</guid>
		<description>Beware the quantum speed trap?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beware the quantum speed trap?</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12314</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 22:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actually, I can&#039;t envision the same commentators at the Los Alamos Museum handling these concepts.  Last time I checked, they were still arguing about whether the U.S. flag on display  was tattered due to desert winds or atomic blasts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I can&#8217;t envision the same commentators at the Los Alamos Museum handling these concepts.  Last time I checked, they were still arguing about whether the U.S. flag on display  was tattered due to desert winds or atomic blasts.</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12313</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 21:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mini black holes perhaps the size of a sand particle have event horizons from which you cannot drop an infinitely small particle and it would not have a boomerang effect.  These thought experiments you can&#039;t speed through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mini black holes perhaps the size of a sand particle have event horizons from which you cannot drop an infinitely small particle and it would not have a boomerang effect.  These thought experiments you can&#8217;t speed through.</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12312</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 21:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=541#comment-12312</guid>
		<description>Some elevators don&#039;t go all the way to the top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some elevators don&#8217;t go all the way to the top.</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12311</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 21:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actually, the human in the space elevator would be cold and doing back flips.  The same person on earth in an elevator would be warm and still, unless the person began fidgeting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the human in the space elevator would be cold and doing back flips.  The same person on earth in an elevator would be warm and still, unless the person began fidgeting.</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/rna-world/comment-page-2/#comment-12310</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 21:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Einstein&#039;s thought experiments involving earth elevators and space elevators,  lend themselves to interesting theory, but really, it&#039;s difficult to discuss this realistically.  A human would be doing back flips in an accelerating space elevator; the same person be getting very warm in a closed earth elevator and would experience boredom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Einstein&#8217;s thought experiments involving earth elevators and space elevators,  lend themselves to interesting theory, but really, it&#8217;s difficult to discuss this realistically.  A human would be doing back flips in an accelerating space elevator; the same person be getting very warm in a closed earth elevator and would experience boredom.</p>
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