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	<title>Comments on: More Trouble for Brain Training</title>
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		<title>By: TimS</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22611</link>
		<dc:creator>TimS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 16:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22611</guid>
		<description>I like the Muscle analogy, however I think it more appropriate if taken a little further. Taking into consideration Running and Cycling, two physical tasks which, if using a simple conceptual model of how muscles work, use the same set of muscles. 

However conditioning towards one activity has very poor transferability to the other because the system is vastly more complex. 

Muscles are comprised of a balance of fibre types with different characteristics, Individual leg muscles can be relatively stronger or weaker to others in the system. Specific conditioning is also required to allow muscles to exert their power best either when lengthening or shortening. Neurological adaptation to the very specific range and motion of muscle activation affect the amount of power developed and the amount of energy required to perform that motion, Bones harden to account for the impact of running. 

In short, the system is vastly complex, and the result is that a top notch cyclist will run about as well as an average (fit-ish) Joe unless they have trained specifically for running.

That&#039;s just a simple mechanical system, upscale that to the complexity of the brain and it would seem likely that a variety of studies will provide seemingly conflicting results^1. And the nature of those conflicts will pave the way towards improving understanding of the brain... maybe :)

(^1 flogging the life out of that analogy, I speculate that cycling might aid running sprints up hills owing to the heavier development of gluteal and hamstring muscles, and high cardio-vascular capacity)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the Muscle analogy, however I think it more appropriate if taken a little further. Taking into consideration Running and Cycling, two physical tasks which, if using a simple conceptual model of how muscles work, use the same set of muscles. </p>
<p>However conditioning towards one activity has very poor transferability to the other because the system is vastly more complex. </p>
<p>Muscles are comprised of a balance of fibre types with different characteristics, Individual leg muscles can be relatively stronger or weaker to others in the system. Specific conditioning is also required to allow muscles to exert their power best either when lengthening or shortening. Neurological adaptation to the very specific range and motion of muscle activation affect the amount of power developed and the amount of energy required to perform that motion, Bones harden to account for the impact of running. </p>
<p>In short, the system is vastly complex, and the result is that a top notch cyclist will run about as well as an average (fit-ish) Joe unless they have trained specifically for running.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s just a simple mechanical system, upscale that to the complexity of the brain and it would seem likely that a variety of studies will provide seemingly conflicting results^1. And the nature of those conflicts will pave the way towards improving understanding of the brain&#8230; maybe <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>(^1 flogging the life out of that analogy, I speculate that cycling might aid running sprints up hills owing to the heavier development of gluteal and hamstring muscles, and high cardio-vascular capacity)</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22389</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 03:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rikki-Tikki-Tavi,  You have an interesting background, which I am sure will help you read alot about the psychological effects of brain aging.  I have worked only with the effects of brain damage through testing, observation, and counseling.  Perhaps you would like to study the Serper method, its relatively new and fun to review the educator&#039;s method.  But my observations are all based in the field.  Reading and exercises don&#039;t stop psychotic associations in the elderly, tangential thinking, or perseveration on a topic.  It assists in focusing a person&#039;s thoughts temporarily.  Asking questions about materials read is most useful for comprehension.   Its fun to watch emotions launch when Serper conducted a discussion about the Chicago Fire and Mrs. O&#039;Leary&#039;s cow.  Oi!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rikki-Tikki-Tavi,  You have an interesting background, which I am sure will help you read alot about the psychological effects of brain aging.  I have worked only with the effects of brain damage through testing, observation, and counseling.  Perhaps you would like to study the Serper method, its relatively new and fun to review the educator&#8217;s method.  But my observations are all based in the field.  Reading and exercises don&#8217;t stop psychotic associations in the elderly, tangential thinking, or perseveration on a topic.  It assists in focusing a person&#8217;s thoughts temporarily.  Asking questions about materials read is most useful for comprehension.   Its fun to watch emotions launch when Serper conducted a discussion about the Chicago Fire and Mrs. O&#8217;Leary&#8217;s cow.  Oi!!</p>
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		<title>By: chrisdbarry</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22367</link>
		<dc:creator>chrisdbarry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22367</guid>
		<description>I think the distinction needs to be made between &quot;learning a task&quot; like the ability to memorise strings of numbers and &quot;learning a skill&quot; like the scientific method. It would seem that &quot;learning a skill&quot; IS transferable and &quot;learning a task&quot; is NOT transferable.

Here&#039;s my conclusion (is this a hypothesis, or is this too strong a word?).

1. We are born - our DNA &quot;pre-programs&quot; a base level of (for want of a better word) &quot;intelligence&quot; and a tendency to be &quot;better&quot; at some tasks, more &quot;driven&quot; and/or have better concentration (obviously lots more to add here).
2. We grow up - we learn &quot;skills&quot; and become good at &quot;tasks&quot; that we repeat regularly.
3. We develop and grow our &quot;abilities&quot; throughout our life (my definition - the combination of DNA, skills and tasks). The development and direction of our tasks and our ability to utilise tasks is influenced by our DNA and &quot;skills&quot; (such as the scientific method).
4. Tasks are NOT transferable, but appropriate skills (such as the scientific method) provide the basis for tasks to be utilised cross functionally, influencing the direction and &quot;growth&quot; of our abilities.

As a non-scientist, I am not sure if this actually makes sense or is missing the mark. Also, I have not read the original article, just Steve&#039;s article and the 27 responses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the distinction needs to be made between &#8220;learning a task&#8221; like the ability to memorise strings of numbers and &#8220;learning a skill&#8221; like the scientific method. It would seem that &#8220;learning a skill&#8221; IS transferable and &#8220;learning a task&#8221; is NOT transferable.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my conclusion (is this a hypothesis, or is this too strong a word?).</p>
<p>1. We are born &#8211; our DNA &#8220;pre-programs&#8221; a base level of (for want of a better word) &#8220;intelligence&#8221; and a tendency to be &#8220;better&#8221; at some tasks, more &#8220;driven&#8221; and/or have better concentration (obviously lots more to add here).<br />
2. We grow up &#8211; we learn &#8220;skills&#8221; and become good at &#8220;tasks&#8221; that we repeat regularly.<br />
3. We develop and grow our &#8220;abilities&#8221; throughout our life (my definition &#8211; the combination of DNA, skills and tasks). The development and direction of our tasks and our ability to utilise tasks is influenced by our DNA and &#8220;skills&#8221; (such as the scientific method).<br />
4. Tasks are NOT transferable, but appropriate skills (such as the scientific method) provide the basis for tasks to be utilised cross functionally, influencing the direction and &#8220;growth&#8221; of our abilities.</p>
<p>As a non-scientist, I am not sure if this actually makes sense or is missing the mark. Also, I have not read the original article, just Steve&#8217;s article and the 27 responses.</p>
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		<title>By: eiskrystal</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22364</link>
		<dc:creator>eiskrystal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 07:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps we need better training games. Ones that teach more general skills such as good organisation, deduction etc... rather than how many meaningless symbols you can remember after 10 seconds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we need better training games. Ones that teach more general skills such as good organisation, deduction etc&#8230; rather than how many meaningless symbols you can remember after 10 seconds.</p>
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		<title>By: SaraJ</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22328</link>
		<dc:creator>SaraJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi, I couldn&#039;t find a contact admin link, so I am just leaving a comment.  I used the search box to look something up, and my virus scanner alerted me, twice, with a Trojan virus warning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I couldn&#8217;t find a contact admin link, so I am just leaving a comment.  I used the search box to look something up, and my virus scanner alerted me, twice, with a Trojan virus warning.</p>
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		<title>By: Rikki-Tikki-Tavi</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22290</link>
		<dc:creator>Rikki-Tikki-Tavi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jun 2010 01:35:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22290</guid>
		<description>@HHC,
I am merely asking a question. I was not trying to imply an answer.

&gt;&gt;How can...

I don&#039;t know. That&#039;s why I asked.

I study mechanical engineering with a focus on launch vehicles. I know nothing about neurology other than what I&#039;ve read here. 

By the way: You haven&#039;t exactly answered my question, you just answered a straw man.
You implied that I asked about reversal of the damage, while I asked about reversal of the effects. And any way you put it, you have not stated any references. Can you give me some?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@HHC,<br />
I am merely asking a question. I was not trying to imply an answer.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;How can&#8230;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know. That&#8217;s why I asked.</p>
<p>I study mechanical engineering with a focus on launch vehicles. I know nothing about neurology other than what I&#8217;ve read here. </p>
<p>By the way: You haven&#8217;t exactly answered my question, you just answered a straw man.<br />
You implied that I asked about reversal of the damage, while I asked about reversal of the effects. And any way you put it, you have not stated any references. Can you give me some?</p>
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		<title>By: SARA</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22276</link>
		<dc:creator>SARA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22276</guid>
		<description>@Marshall,
When transferring a physical skill out of the virtual realm, I think there is a disconnect.  There was a recent article in Discover:        (  http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/16-the-brain-athletes-are-geniuses  ) about how we have to train ourselves to do a physical task well.  It involves the repetitive physical action so that your brain knows exactly how to adjust your arm, your wrist, whatever.  
So I think the halo player is unlikely to be a crack shot in real life, because while he has learned a great deal about the visual part of the task, he has not learned the muscular part of it.  

But to your point, because it involves a new skill, it would no longer be a direct transfer of learning.  Unlike your 3-D map example, which is a direct transfer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Marshall,<br />
When transferring a physical skill out of the virtual realm, I think there is a disconnect.  There was a recent article in Discover:        (  <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/16-the-brain-athletes-are-geniuses" rel="nofollow">http://discovermagazine.com/2010/apr/16-the-brain-athletes-are-geniuses</a>  ) about how we have to train ourselves to do a physical task well.  It involves the repetitive physical action so that your brain knows exactly how to adjust your arm, your wrist, whatever.<br />
So I think the halo player is unlikely to be a crack shot in real life, because while he has learned a great deal about the visual part of the task, he has not learned the muscular part of it.  </p>
<p>But to your point, because it involves a new skill, it would no longer be a direct transfer of learning.  Unlike your 3-D map example, which is a direct transfer.</p>
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		<title>By: theBrad</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22261</link>
		<dc:creator>theBrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 12:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22261</guid>
		<description>The one about training is the fiction! ISn&#039;t most of it a matter of executive function? The individual&#039;s ability to systematically parse a learned skill and new situations relevant to its application? Isn&#039;t efficiency at this a function of the skill level that IQ tests for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one about training is the fiction! ISn&#8217;t most of it a matter of executive function? The individual&#8217;s ability to systematically parse a learned skill and new situations relevant to its application? Isn&#8217;t efficiency at this a function of the skill level that IQ tests for?</p>
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		<title>By: BillyJoe7</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22248</link>
		<dc:creator>BillyJoe7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 06:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22248</guid>
		<description>Marshall

&quot;link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4y0EUlU-Y — a beautiful video!&quot;

Thanks for that. 
I spent a beautiful ten minutes listening to that video.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marshall</p>
<p>&#8220;link: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4y0EUlU-Y" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4y0EUlU-Y</a> — a beautiful video!&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks for that.<br />
I spent a beautiful ten minutes listening to that video.</p>
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		<title>By: BillyJoe7</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-trouble-for-brain-training/comment-page-1/#comment-22245</link>
		<dc:creator>BillyJoe7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 06:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2044#comment-22245</guid>
		<description>Marshall,

&quot;It seems intuitive...I believe they very much are...I would bet that...&quot;

This study converts &quot;intuition&quot;, &quot;believing, and &quot;betting&quot; into what&#039;s scientifically defensible. It&#039;s not the last word (no single study can be), but it&#039;s better then the notoriously unrelaible evidence from personal experience.

Another dubious anecdote: 
I have very good 3D and map reading skills, but the only computer game I ever played is &quot;Cosmo&quot;. Maybe Cosmo was responsible. But maybe not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marshall,</p>
<p>&#8220;It seems intuitive&#8230;I believe they very much are&#8230;I would bet that&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This study converts &#8220;intuition&#8221;, &#8220;believing, and &#8220;betting&#8221; into what&#8217;s scientifically defensible. It&#8217;s not the last word (no single study can be), but it&#8217;s better then the notoriously unrelaible evidence from personal experience.</p>
<p>Another dubious anecdote:<br />
I have very good 3D and map reading skills, but the only computer game I ever played is &#8220;Cosmo&#8221;. Maybe Cosmo was responsible. But maybe not.</p>
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