Sep 15 2011

More Meier Apologetics

Sorry to keep beating this dead horse, but sometimes it’s helpful to pursue an issue tenaciously until it is wrung dry. In this case, it is interesting to see the exact lengths to which Meier believers will go in order to defend his nonsensical claims. It’s like watching a multi-car pile up on the highway – more cars keep piling in and you can’t help wondering how bad it’s going to get.

One downside to such follow up, however (something which comes up frequently as a skeptical blogger) is giving attention to the attention-whores. I am frequently contacted by cranks and charlatans who are desperate for attention – they jump in front of me, frantically waving their arms (metaphorically, of course) trying to goad me into writing a response on my blog. I hate to give in to such tactics, but at the same time it can be entertaining and educational to dissect their nonsense. So I will occasionally give in.

One criterion I use before I decide to give the attention-seekers what they wish is whether or not they already have an audience for their claims, or do they have a position which (at least superficially) engenders serious attention. If so, then their claims are more deserving of a formal response. But generally, as long as I feel it can be turned into a teaching point, it’s fair game.

In any case – in response to my original post on Billy Meier last week, one professor Jim Deardorff responded to me directly in an e-mail (I feel it is reasonable for me to reproduce it here since he has already given permission to another Meier supporter, and relentless attention-whore, to make it public on his blog). So here is the letter and my public response:

Hello Dr. Novella,

In your blog you tried to dismiss the reasonable response of Jamesm that Billy Meier’s ETs have been providing Meier with evidence which, now and then, contains seemingly ambiguous elements so that negative skeptics can latch onto that and accept their own negative interpretation while ignoring other aspects that indicate reality — i.e., they supply some “plausible deniability” so that negative skeptics aren’t forced to believe that which they simply find to be unacceptable.

You called it post-hoc reasoning. But really, do you think anyone could arrive at Jamesm’s conclusion _before_ there was sufficient evidence for them to examine? (“Post” means after.)

The evidence you’ve ignored includes the first-hand eye-witness accounts of over 60 persons who were visiting Meier in Switzerland on and off over a period of 35 years when a particular event occurred, or were temporarily living at his converted-barn residence or who lived nearby. You should read their accounts and meet some of them before claiming they were deluded or mistaken or in on a hoax. E.g., see www.tjresearch.info/witness-list.htm . Or, read how and why the Meier-case debunking started, back around 1978, in www.tjresearch.info/Review_Clark.htm . Or review the ignored evidence regarding many of his beamship photos that indicate they could not have been any hoax — www.tjresearch.info/ufology.htm along with refutations of the attempted debunkings. Or see  www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm where, if a model had been used along with a model tree or miniature tree, the tree & model would have had to be some 40 or 50 ft away from the camera, with a pole (to hold a support string for a dangling model) of comparable length.

You really do owe Mr. Meier a huge apology for portraying him as being a giant hoaxer, while all those who have known him closely regard him as being honest and sincere.

Sincerely,

Jim Deardorff
Research Professor emeritus
Oregon State University
Fellow, AAAS

Professor Deardorff, despite his credentials, has made numerous logical and scientific errors in his analysis, the first is failing to understand the nature of post-hoc reasoning, which was the focus of my original post. Deardorff, for context, is a long-time supporter of Meier’s claims. Of course evidence has to be examined after it is available. But the significance of evidence should be established prior to that evidence appearing – based upon some logic or standard. Sometimes we have no choice – we are confronted by unexpected evidence and have to make sense of it. But then, all we can really do is form hypotheses to be tested by gathering further evidence.

The problem of post-hoc analysis is that the significance of evidence can be determined after the fact, and there is a tendency for this analysis to be overwhelmed by our biases. We decide that the evidence supports our desired conclusions – after we know the evidence is there. But would be have made the same judgment before we knew what the evidence was?

Deardorff also gives us the typical dismissal of skepticism, calling us “negative skeptics.” Science, however, embraces skepticism. Skepticism is the process by which we separate ideas we want to be true from ideas that actually are true. Deardorff does not seem to get this. Deardorff does not seem to understand the nature of special pleading and post-hoc analysis, and why they are not legitimate scientific methods. In an article defending Meier from a major critic, Kal Korff, Deardorff writes:

None of the above photographic findings is surprising if Meier’s ET contacts are treated as the reality they appear to be. Yet, apparently because he is unable to seriously consider this possibility, Korff has failed to look into, or report on, the above evidence validating the genuineness of this series of 34 beamship photos.

What he is saying, essentially, is that if you start with the assumption that Meier’s claims are true, you can make  sense of all the apparent anomalies that Korff is pointing out. Deardorff is defending special pleading – trying to make the data fit the conclusion. He justifies this because of all the other evidence that Meier’s claims are genuine. This is a classic trap – many believers just know that their beliefs are true. They have been convinced by experience or evidence. And so when evidence does not fit their belief, there must be something wrong with that evidence, or some way to explain it away. Their error is in prematurely concluded that a phenomenon is real, and then dismissing any further contradictory evidence.

Deardorff claims, for example, that I am ignoring the evidence of eye witnesses. I am not ignoring this evidence – I simply find it unconvincing. Eye witnesses are extremely unreliable – this has been clearly established in the psychological literature, and by many historical events. Also, Deardorff is ignoring the fact that eyewitness accounts in the Meier case are contradictory. His ex-wife gives us testimony that Meier was engaged in a deliberate hoax – so I guess Deardorff has to dismiss her testimony. She previously validated Meier’s claims, so I am happy to just say that her account is unreliable.

Here is another case of incredible special pleading – above is another famous Meier photo with a typical flying saucer apparently attached to a small tree. When the area was later inspected (it was on a neighbor’s field) the tree in the image was not there. Meier helpfully explained that Semjase (the alien who’s ship is allegedly depicted) later removed the tree, for some reason. Meanwhile, the neighbor said the tree was never there.

That, Deardorff, is what I mean by post-hoc analysis. We see a picture of a UFO up against a tree. Meier claims its a real ship flying around the tree. Skeptics argue it is probably a small model attached to a model tree. When the site is investigated, there is no tree there. The simplest explanation is that the tree was, in fact, a small model. But Meier claims that, inexplicably, the alien removed the tree. I guess that was to further skepticism against Meier, otherwise rational people might believe his claims.

Deardorff is also impressed by his allegedly careful scientific analysis of the Meier evidence. What he actually offers is a great example of motivated reasoning – a deliberate inability to see the forest for the trees. What believers often do is examine minutia of the evidence, with post-hoc significance. They then substitute their minute analysis for the obvious big picture evidence, and claim they are being scientific.

Here is a good example – a detailed “scientific” analysis of the alleged Asket photo and the picture of the dancer from the Dean Martin show that skeptics claimed was the real subject was published on FIGU (I can no longer find the analysis on line, for obvious reasons). The article concluded, based upon detailed scientific analysis of their faces, that they could not be the same person. The fact that they looked like the same person was dismissed (the human brain is actually quite good at recognizing faces).

It was later revealed – by Meier – that the photos of Asket were photos of the American dancer. He was the victim of a setup by the Men in Black (or their equivalent). So much for careful scientific analysis – trumped by motivated reasoning and post-hoc analysis.

I don’t think I owe Meier an apology for my analysis of his claims and the reasoning of those who believe them. In my opinion, Meier owes the world an apology for perpetrating such a large hoax over so many years. He can redeem himself by finally coming clean – explain the truth to the world and provide a well-documented example of the human capacity for self-deception. The Meier case already is this, but it would be nice to have the full inside story.

Of course, then the hard core believers would just claim that the MIB finally got to Meier, or perhaps even replaced him with an imposter. There is truly no evidence that cannot be rationalized away.

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54 responses so far

54 Responses to “More Meier Apologetics”

  1. nybgruson 15 Sep 2011 at 8:51 am

    a deliberate inability to see the forest for the trees.

    I see what you did there…. :-)

  2. banyanon 15 Sep 2011 at 8:51 am

    Wow. I can’t believe anyone actually takes jamesm’s line of reasoning seriously. Look back at the comments and you’ll see that most of us thought he was joking.

    Could evidence the quality that Meier presents be recreated by a hoaxer? The answer is plainly yes. So we have two explanations:

    (1) The ET’s needed to provide low-grade evidence so that skeptics could deny Meier’s claims.
    (2) Meier is actually a hoaxer.

    How can we possibly take the first explanation seriously as long as the second is available? And if we do think the first is a serious explanation, how can we possibly determine if anyone is ever perpetrating a hoax without them coming out and saying so?

    It’s like if I said that there was a magical invisible fairy that made a coin come up heads every time I flipped it. I get out a coin to show you and roughly half the time it comes up heads while the other half comes up tails. I explain that the magical fairy needs to do that sometimes so as not to be too obvious. Are you really going to believe me?

  3. Steven Novellaon 15 Sep 2011 at 9:13 am

    worse – you get caught using a two-headed coin, and then claim that the anti-fairy brigade swapped in the two-headed coin at the last moment to frame you and cover-up the existence of fairies.

  4. ccbowerson 15 Sep 2011 at 9:35 am

    I like the clarification by the professor:

    ‘“Post” means after’

    That is the lesson for today. I feel like he learned me a lot.

  5. ccbowerson 15 Sep 2011 at 10:35 am

    “But then, all we can really do is form hypotheses to be tested by gathering further evidence.”

    I was going to comment on this in the original post, and you reminded me. Post hoc reasoning is used in science all of the time, but when done correctly is useful for the purpose of brainstorming and coming up with potential hypotheses to be tested. The point is not to use post hoc reasoning as a final explanation, because if that is all you have you don’t have much

  6. jreon 15 Sep 2011 at 12:02 pm

    Deardorff’s website presents an exegesis of “The Talmud of Jmmanuel” (sic) and offers the following caution:

    Scholars beware: the UFO- biblical connections are real

  7. Smedon 15 Sep 2011 at 1:32 pm

    I think the only explanation for a professor at OSU and fellow of the AAAS being so dim is that he’s being controlled by the Semjase. It’s really his best evidence.

    What an embarrassment.

  8. Kawarthajonon 15 Sep 2011 at 1:32 pm

    This Deardoff has impressive academic credentials
    ( http://www.tjresearch.info/resume.htm ), although in my opinion he is making an ass of himself supporting Meier. Note on his resume, his published papers take a bizzare 180 turn in the late 1980′s, after his retirement. He goes from publishing papers about meteorlogical modelling, to publishing papers on Jesus reincarnated in India and extraterrestrials.

    Meier’s claims are so ridiculous, his evidence is so obviously made up and have been so thoroughly found to be nonsense, it is surprising that anyone has to spend any time debating about him. It appears as though Meier is trying to help himself create a cult following. I just learned, from Dr. Deardoff’s email, that there is some sort of converted barn you can go to to experience the ET’s with Meier.

  9. SARAon 15 Sep 2011 at 3:46 pm

    I can’t get past the apparent lack of logic behind the ET contacting an obscure man in Switzerland rather than say – the UN, or the Swiss government, or SETI astronomers, or really any one of thousands of candidates who would been a more logical representative of earth’s civilization and human population.

    Not that this is evidence, but every time someone announces that they have met ET I really have to wonder about how a life form advanced enough to travel mega distances of space is not bright enough to contact an appropriate representative of the planet.

  10. porlobon 15 Sep 2011 at 4:17 pm

    Meier claims and evidence are fascinating beause, wow, they are so obviously false. Not just false, but nakedly, unabashedly fraudulaent.

    I remember in 3rd grade or so semi-jokingly trying to convince my friends that I was psychic, and when they asked me to tell them what they were thinking, I insisted that I didn’t need to prove myself to them.

    Needless to say, not many of them believed me. Meier’s rationalizations are on-par with this kind of school yard trick. I find it difficult to even imagine the mindset of someone who buys into his stories.

  11. gr8googlymooglyon 15 Sep 2011 at 8:12 pm

    Excellent post, as usual. I am going to make it a point to memorize the following qoute as I think it is the best explanation of skepticism that I have ever seen:

    “Skepticism is the process by which we separate ideas we want to be true from ideas that actually are true.”.

    Simply awesome.

  12. HHCon 15 Sep 2011 at 11:35 pm

    Jim Deardorff has beliefs about courtesy which would have skeptics apologize for saying anything negative about the accusers in the Salem witch trials.

  13. Davdoodleson 16 Sep 2011 at 12:35 am

    I keep coming back to the fact that the ‘beamships’ etc are not sophisticated fakes, or even ambiguous – they are obviously small, and man-made, from old hubcaps and bin lids and baubles and assorted junk.

    It’s fascinating (to a degree at least) that people will buy into a sophisticated, albiet unlikely, fantasy.

    But to buy into a fantasy which is so obviously crap, is quite nauseating to behold.
    .

  14. RyanJLindon 16 Sep 2011 at 2:44 am

    Wow, this is something else.

    I wonder if the truebelievers understand the basic concept of probability? When faced with a piece of evidence, we can assign simple probabilities to explanations of the evidence:

    1) A photograph of some saucer on a tree.

    Possibilities:

    A) It’s a model.
    B) It’s photoshopped.
    C) It’s an alien spacecraft flying around some tree for no discernible reason.

    Based on Bayes, I think the odds are already pretty heavily in favor of [A or B], but we can test this by making a prediction. If C) is true, the tree must exist. Does the tree exist?

    2) The tree is found not to exist.

    Possibilities:

    A) The tree never existed.
    B) The tree was cleanly removed by aliens to raise doubt about their existence (the “God put the dinosaurs there to test my faith” scenario)

    Again, the probability of A would have to be way higher than B I would think, but we can test even this by talking to someone familiar with the land; like, I don’t know, the owner of the land.

    3) The landowner claims that the tree never existed.

    Possibilities:

    A) The landowner is telling the truth.
    B) The landowner is mistaken.
    C) The landowner has had his memory erased by advanced alien technology.

    Again, what are the probabilities? And so forth…I mean…is this not how one evaluates stuff like this? I don’t understand how any human, let alone a freaking [i]research professor[/i] can take a drastically different approach…

  15. eiskrystalon 16 Sep 2011 at 4:07 am

    Oh god this is so retarded, i’ve been reading a summary of his stuff.

    So this guy has been travelling in time with aliens only about 1 inch tall, one of whom was the original Jesus… and they communicate with him through telepathy. There have also been attempts on his life from “bad” extraterrestrials but these were foiled by him and his pleidan friends.

    Can anyone say invisible childhood friends and little-boys-adventure?

  16. mahigitamon 16 Sep 2011 at 4:49 am

    I am with RyanJLind’s step by step reasoning, constructing various scenarios and comparing with that of statements from witnesses. IMO, once we reach the final stage of evaluation, we shouldn’t jump to rigid conclusion but should look at the connecting trail of evidences & see how the evidences matchup and stand in the light of logic & facts at hand.

    That being said, most of the analysis that i have come across has left out data of a particular event leaving the researcher to favour other hypotheses. What RyanJlind’s analysis is missing is the eye-witness accounts of 2 persons who have witnessed the tree(later disappeared) glowing.
    If we take this into account, person witnessing glowing tree, Semjase’s explanation about the erasing of memories, disappearing of tree, i find there are no internal inconsistencies in the overall evidence present at hand.

    That doesnot mean there really is an ET craft. It could well mean that witnesses are lying or being hypnotised, etc… Still, the final judgement is not certain. So what i think the best way to move forward in evaluating Meier’s evidence is to demand more evidence and analyse them scientifically/logically wherever appropriate.

  17. johnmatthewsonon 16 Sep 2011 at 5:09 am

    Steve, I am with you all the way on the analysis of this claim. Something that worries me slightly about both the claim and the analysis is that it obscures the truly interesting facts about UFOs:

    There has been a international cover-up.

    There are reports that leave open the possibility that UFOs exist.

    These points are covered in a down-to-earth article at: http://pol-check.blogspot.com/2011/03/british-ufo-files.html

    Can you be surprised that there are conspiracy theorists when a conspiracy has been proven?

  18. Ted N.on 16 Sep 2011 at 6:50 am

    Dear Dr. Novella,

    Your interest for this patient is more than legitimate, because it is clearly a case of delusion of …biblical proportion.

    In fact, on page 65 of the Meier’s apologetical book ‘And yet…they fly’, published in 2001, its author (Guido Moosbrugger, a good friend of Meier and a member of the so-called FIGU core group of 49 (sic)) actually shed some interesting light on the character we are dealing with:

    “One fine day, Billy was finally locked up in a psychiatric clinic where they examined him for mental well-being, among other things.
    After they had played the nastiest game with him there, he decided to flee from the country, which he actually succeeded in doing, but under extremely difficult and life-threatening circumstances. In any case, he battled his way over the border to France where he enlisted in the Foreign Legion.
    Billy was only 15 years old.
    Although he realized very soon that such a step was a mistake, fleeing from the Legion seemed to be impossible. Nonetheless, he managed to accomplish this feat and was able to retreat to the other bank of the Rhine. Once he was back in Switzerland, he reported himself to the authorities. Inexplicably, he still kept silent despite all imaginable condemnations.
    Even after psychologists and psychiatrists at the Rheinau Cantonal Clinic recognized his above-average intelligence, Billy was brought to trial and sentenced to 4 and a half years of imprisonment.”

    After having served his term, the young Meier headed to new adventures, away from the, so to speak, crook unfriendly Swiss authorities…

    According to Meier, Appolo 11 is a hoax, involving large scale hypnosis: http://futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Warning_to_all_the_governments_of_Europe!
    “14. Even next year on September 13th, 1959, using rocket propulsion, the Earth human, respectively the Soviet Union, will make a hard landing of an unmanned object on the moon; and on April 12th, 1961 an Earth human will climb high in the sky with a rocket to orbit around in the Earth’s outer space, then on February 3rd, 1966 an aerospace object will make a soft landing on the moon, then in 1968, the outer fringes of Earth’s space will be left, and later the first trip to the moon will be undertaken, whereby up until the year 1972, five (5) manned moon landings will take place through the U.S.A., while a sixth moon landing* – supposedly the first – on August 20th, 1969 will rest only on a world-wide staged deceit as a result of the political armament race with the Soviet Union.”

    …The advanced science of the Plejaren will save us: http://webstation6.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=105&Itemid=222

    “Raphael Labro: More and more, people on Earth are concerned about terrible, dangerous diseases. Mad Cow Disease? AIDS? Obviously, there are no chances to fight or weaken them. Can you give us new information What are the origins? What can be done? What is being done about health and healing processes?? Is there a lesson to be learnt?

    Billy Meier: Yes, I can. The Pleiadians gave me information about the origin of AIDS and the “Mad Cows Disease”.
    The source of AIDS is in Uganda, Africa. It originates from the sexual practice of Sodomy with long-tailed apes (Meerkatzen). These animals have the AIDS virus in their DNA but will not be affected. Due to the practice of having sex with these creatures, the virus is transmitted to the human beings. Additionally, the homosexuality increases the speed of transmission from one person to the other. From Africa, it was transferred to Haiti, than the U.S. and from here to the entire world.

    (Compare: 150th Contact Report, Saturday, October 10, 1981, 3:15 AM)

    There are 14 different types of AIDS Virus. One of them is even unknown to the Pleiadians and therefore not able to have a kind of therapy. The other ones will be fought the following way: On Earth, there are 31.000 people which get direct impulses from the Pleiadians. Only 5 of them know about this fact, the others just receive “spiritual” impulses to prompt the scientific process. The Pleiadians research with their experts on the medical field and results are given as mentioned impulses to Earth. This is the help of our friends.

    The transmission of AIDS proceed the following: By Coitus, French kisses, homosexual practises, blood transfers, open injuries and mosquito bites. The use of condoms is more useful against other sexual diseases but less or only of minor use against AIDS.

    Cats carry three different kinds of A.I.D.S. virus which might be transferable to humans. Other animals are A.I.D.S. transmitters as well, e.g. cheetahs.

    Raphael: What’s the reason that Earth was punished with this disease?

    Billy: All the sexual abnormalities are responsible. It should be mentioned that Homosexuality is not regarded as abnormality but as something comparable to a “sickness”. It should not be punished. Regarding men, it’s looked upon to be a “vast of seed”; concerning women one can say as blossoming is impossible, law says o.k.

    Raphael: Billy, thank you for the explanation regarding A.I.D.S. but what have you been told about B.S.E?

    Billy: B.S.E. (bovine spongiform encephalopathy) basically is triggered by sheep.The animals transmitted the virus to cattle and apparently all mammals can be infected. Another disease, the Creutzfeld-Jakob-Disease (CJD) is directly connected with B.S.E. as well as the Gerstmann-Sträussler-Syndrome.

    The infection is possible either by hereditation or transmission through bloody saliva. Of course, the ingestion of infected meat is carrier as well.

    The pathogens of B.S.E. are not to be destroyed by only cooking the meat. Temperatures of over 700°C (1228°F) are necessary, probably even 1000°C (1768°C). The incubation period varies regarding the evolution level of the carriers life form: Possible are 3 months up to 40, 50 years. For human beings, incubation periods can range up to the latter ones. This means, that most people already will naturally die before the virus reveals.

    Raphael: Hopefully. Did you get any information about the background and development of the disease or any indication what is to be done?

    Billy: The above given data I was told in contact 249 in June 1994. Ptaah (Semjase’s father), didn’t tell me about the reasons. I suppose, our Pleiadian friends will give impulses to some scientists as they do it for AIDS-therapies.”

    The true masterpiece however is ‘The origin of human beings on earth’: http://webstation6.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=219

    A taste of it:
    “Raphael: Concerning the yellow coloured people, can you explain where they are coming from?

    Billy: As most of the Earthly humans origin from refugees from the Lyrian and Vegian System, the Japanese and Chinese population find their very ancestors in refugees from the Syrian system. These refugees looked for some hidden place – as all the voyagers and refugees for Lyra and Vega did – and finally found the planet Kudra in the NISSAN system. Later, forced to leave this planet again, they revealed the Earth, as one of the most nice and life-friendly planets in the universe.

    Raphael: I think that the Japanese will laugh or will be really disappointed with your last answer, Billy! Where exactly is this Toyota system located?

    Billy: Not Toyota system! Please don”t play the stupid Earthling, Raphael! It took nearly seven years to Ptaah to make the research. And from his information: it’s call the Nissan system, which is located on the opposite side of the galaxy, 114.000 light-years away from our Milky Way’s position. The last group of Nissan-refugees arrived 26.000 years ago on Earth.”

    … and if you think, it couldn’ t get more pathetic, get acquainted with the enlightened views of Meier’s spiritual teachers on the Hebrews:

    “Semjase:
    140. The third Earth people was actually, in and of itself, no such thing, because it concerned a very widely disseminated alliance of gypsies, which was interspersed with Jehavon\’s spies and saboteurs, who, in unity with the gypsies, brought about dissention everywhere, greedily drawing everything to themselves and were always constantly eager to murder, burn and rob, for which reason one named them the Hebrons by the original language of our forefathers, therefore Hebraon and later then Hebrons.

    141. These names correspond to gypsy, scum and outcast in the sense of the original language, which therefore has not been transferred to your present languages, because the sense of your present term for gypsy still only means the wanderers, the itinerant, and the unsettled ones.

    142. Thereby it should be clarified that the present gypsy people have not the least in common with the Hebraons of that time, who proclaimed themselves the first born and the chosen ones, just as much as do their distant descendents, who today still dare to assert this.
    143. In truth, the Hebraons were the real scum and outcasts of Earth humanity, because through them fights and quarrels within the whole world were constantly stirred up and yet further spread, which has been maintained until the present day.
    144. Earth will first finally be calm, then, when this power-hungry and bloodthirsty Hebraon alliance, and which they themselves named as a people, which has split into various sects addicted to world control, and so forth, is fully dissolved.”

    And much more of the same: http://futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_070

  19. elmer mccurdyon 16 Sep 2011 at 9:23 am

    That 2nd graph was bizarre and incredibly obnoxious. The guy wrote you an email because he disagreed with you. Seems like that’s all there was to it.

  20. Cayon 16 Sep 2011 at 9:54 am

    Thank goodness this guy is retired. As a parent living in Oregon, this got me really scared about our higher education system.

  21. BillyJoe7on 18 Sep 2011 at 2:21 am

    mahigitam,

    “If we take this into account, person witnessing glowing tree, Semjase’s explanation about the erasing of memories, disappearing of tree, i find there are no internal inconsistencies in the overall evidence present at hand.”

    But the multiplication of the string of low probabilities is meanwhile rapidly approaching zero.

    “Still, the final judgement is not certain. So what i think the best way to move forward in evaluating Meier’s evidence is to demand more evidence”

    What is zero multiplied by 1?

  22. tmac57on 18 Sep 2011 at 10:32 am

    “Mr. Meier,how do you account for the fact that some of your photos clearly show that the “UFOs” were suspended by strings?”

    “The Pleiadians told me that their beamships use advanced ‘string theory’ as a means of propulsion” *

    *Note: The above exchange is parody.(Due to the nature of some of these comments,I thought that I needed to add the disclaimer).

  23. Ted N.on 18 Sep 2011 at 11:03 am

    @mahigitam: “What RyanJlind’s analysis is missing is the eye-witness accounts of 2 persons who have witnessed the tree(later disappeared) glowing.
    If we take this into account, person witnessing glowing tree, Semjase’s explanation about the erasing of memories, disappearing of tree, i find there are no internal inconsistencies in the overall evidence present at hand.”

    I concorde with BillyJoe7: this is indeed very, very fantastic!

    Correct me, if i am wrong, but i bet, that those 2 persons-witnesses are in one way or another connected to Billy Meier.

    Furthermore, why the erasing of memories?
    Does it sound logical to you, that someone, who came up with claims so fantastic and a message so important and urgent, that he could use any independent witness he could find (and the more, the better!) and would be happy with any physical evidence and independent sources, which would back him and foster his message, would agree not only with the elimination of that crucial tree, but also with the erasing of the memories of those crucial witnesses about that crucial tree??

    And again, if that erasing of memories took place, how than could those 2 witnesses remember that event and testify on it?

    Please, don’t say, that it was a selective erasing of memories and that only the witnesses associated with Billy Meier could keep their memory, because it would be so blatantly absurd and suspiciously convenient!

    Nonetheless, feel free to demand more evidence; i for one can’t wait!

  24. SteveAon 19 Sep 2011 at 8:02 am

    johnmatthewson: “There has been a international cover-up.

    There are reports that leave open the possibility that UFOs exist.
    These points are covered in a down-to-earth article at: http://pol-check.blogspot.com/2011/03/british-ufo-files.html

    Can you be surprised that there are conspiracy theorists when a conspiracy has been proven?”

    Excuse me, but what evidence for conspiracy do you think this is?

    During the Cold War the UK government was justifiably concerned about UFO sightings as they constituted a real threat to national security. Russian aircraft frequently ‘got lost’ and strayed into sensitive areas. The RAF was regularly scrambled to investigate solid UFO contacts (ie sustained unidentified RADAR contacts) and always found a Russian. In 1989 this threat disappeared and the only UFOs left were the ones that could easily be explained by observer error, technical limitations (radar static etc) and natural phenomena (like Venus).

    The fact that UFO files collected by the Government have now be released after 20 years (a routine procedure for non-sensitive information) is not an indication of any kind of conspiracy.

  25. tmac57on 19 Sep 2011 at 10:09 am

    SteveA- I see that you are a shill for ‘Big Alien’ ;)

  26. Ted N.on 20 Sep 2011 at 3:57 am

    @SteveA,
    Speaking of governments and aliens, it appeared, that as early as 1979, Billy Meier’s Plejaren aliens had the opportunity to share their huge knowledge and wisdom with us, earth worms, through the then US government.

    Here is all they had to say:
    http://futureofmankind.co.uk/meier/gaiaguys/ET.to.USA.1979.htm

    PS: i wonder if Dr. Novella could analyse the pathology of this delusion.

  27. mahigitamon 25 Sep 2011 at 6:30 am

    “But the multiplication of the string of low probabilities is meanwhile rapidly approaching zero.”

    Does it not sound like ‘Circular reasoning’..?
    The reason why we are not discussing events of high probabilities(most daily routines, occurances/frequencies of diseases in 3rd world countries,…) but discussing Billy Meier case is because the probability of events present in it are according to the present knowledge extremely low.(Probability argument is one reason. It is also the same argument where Richard Dawkins counters to that of Theist’s claims that ‘due to the high value improbability of amino acids coming together & subsequently forming life within 4.5 billion years, there must be a creator god’. One argument Dawkins uses is that even though there is extremely low probability of winning a lottery(1 in several billions), one person definitely wins.) Also due to other reasons, IMO i dont think we should base our judgments on probability arguments but should look into the available evidence.

    “why the erasing of memories?And again, if that erasing of memories took place, how than could those 2 witnesses remember that event and testify on it?Please, don’t say, that it was a selective erasing of memories and that only the witnesses associated with Billy Meier could keep their memory, because it would be so blatantly absurd and suspiciously convenient!”

    Most of us unknowingly fall into the ‘Blind men and an elephant’ scenario where there is deficit or inaccessibility of information and consideration of different perspectives.
    (please refer:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant)

    The event of erasing memories of ‘Disappeared Tree’(or any event in this or any case) could be well understood if it is seen from the main story which is ‘The Plejaren/Billy Mission on Earth’.
    Being said that, we can now argue as to if there are any logical reasons for erasing & not-erasing memories of different individuals. Also we can discuss another similar event where again a small tree was made to disappear(October 17,1976), where we have evidence of erased tree in photos with dozen witnesses present.

    “i bet, that those 2 persons-witnesses are in one way or another connected to Billy Meier.”

    The persons gathered around Billy came in different times(years apart) and from different places & due to various reasons. Not all of them agree with Billy. There are many who left group or made to leave the group due to reasons which are clearly explained in the contact notes. Kalliope, Hans Schutzbach, Konrad Schutzbach, Hans Jacob, Elsi, and so on. All of them gave testimonials of witnessing ‘unexplained events/Beamship Sightings’. I dont think just because someone is somehow related or connected to Billy or his story, we can exclude their testimonials, which are still valid in the court of law.
    If one still have problems with such witnesses, we can always find other persons such as investigators, skeptics & others who witnessed events which according to them can only be termed as ‘extraordinary’.

    In short, to avoid the ‘Blind men and an elephant’ scenario, first the reader should be familiar with the information present at hand and then connect dots, which may solve atleast some ‘discrepancies’.

  28. Ted N.on 26 Sep 2011 at 4:24 am

    @mahigitam: “Also due to other reasons, IMO i dont think we should base our judgments on probability arguments but should look into the available evidence.”
    Well, present the available evidence, not hearsays, speculations and other fantastic anecdotes; it would be studied.

    “In short, to avoid the ‘Blind men and an elephant’ scenario, first the reader should be familiar with the information present at hand and then connect dots, which may solve atleast some ‘discrepancies’.”
    Are you seriously saying, that those aliens flew through huge space and time and from other dimension to submit us a…puzzle to solve?!
    Come on!
    Besides, this hypothesis would contradict not only the core reason for those aliens to provide Billy Meier with physical evidence, that is to convince mankind of the reality of the existence of those aliens, of their visitation of earth and contact with Billy Meier, so that their and his message would be taken seriously, but also the whole idea of the importance and urgency of their alleged message to mankind.
    That is, unless the rest of the message of Billy Meier and of his aliens is of the same nature as this one:
    http://futureofmankind.co.uk/meier/gaiaguys/ET.to.USA.1979.htm
    By the way, what do you make of the substance of this message?

    In short, there are rather discrepancies (thanks for the exhaustively revealing word) than dots to connect – unless, of course, you think and argue, that only those who are ready, are able to see and accept the evidence, which would bring us back to the same special pleading, which Dr. Novella comprehensively exposed.

    So if you wish to do a favor to Billy Meier, the plejaren and, it seems, mankind, ask for a hard physical evidence, which would match the reach of Billy Meier’s claims, and submit it to due scientific scrutiny.
    After all, Billy Meier and the Plejaren want to liberate us from beliefs, don’t they?

  29. Judy1on 26 Sep 2011 at 9:04 pm

    Dr Novella, please start pulling your punches a bit with the elderly Eduard Billy Meier.

    Please remember, that however much you despise fraudsters; if that original 1980′s assessment of him as a kind of photo journalist hoaxer had been left where it was, Meier, by now would’ve faded into obscurity.

    Instead of which, the amount of Phd’s tasked by western governments to nail this 74 year old is starting to bring out the sympathy vote.

    Now, in the twilight of his years, this continual vilification of a kindly gentleman who was found guilty of owning a camera, is most certainly undeserved. What has he ever done to deserve such ignominy?

    Have you Phd’s ever heard of Pol Pot? Does the name Idi Amin ring a bell?

  30. Ted N.on 27 Sep 2011 at 5:47 am

    @Judy1:
    “if that original 1980′s assessment of him as a kind of photo journalist hoaxer had been left where it was, Meier, by now would’ve faded into obscurity.”

    I follow this case for some time now and i doubt, that it would have happened, because there exists a real industry behind the Billy Meier story; there are organized networks, zealous apologists (apologetes, if you wish), including a hyperactive ‘US media representative’, and many misled ‘believers’, who work round-the-clock to keep it running and Billy Meier himself keeps making more horrendous claims.

    “Now, in the twilight of his years, this continual vilification of a kindly gentleman who was found guilty of owning a camera, is most certainly undeserved. What has he ever done to deserve such ignominy?”

    Scientists, Phd’s, as you chose to put it, have all rights to scrutinize the statements and ‘evidence’ of Billy Meier, for he publishes scientific information he claims he receives from aliens and claims the ownership of many scientific discoveries, through his ‘prophecies’ and ‘predictions’, one of the latest being the discovery of Apophis.
    Pol Pot and Idi Amin were certainly dangerous megalomaniacs and despictable individuals, but they did not mess with science, did not steal the hard intellectual work and scientific achievements of other people; they did not claim to be the reincarnations of Jesus Christ, or Jmmanuel, Mohammed and all the other prophets; they did not claim to be the most knowledgeable beings on earth and the creators of human races and the ultimate saviors of current humanity; …
    That man gets only what he deserves.

  31. Judy1on 27 Sep 2011 at 7:31 am

    You say: “Pol Pot and Idi Amin were certainly dangerous megalomaniacs and despicable individuals, but they did not mess with science.” So it’s okay to slaughter millions of innocent people just so long as you don’t mess with my test tubes. Doh!

    If you were to look on the net, under the heading of ‘New Age,’ you would see hundreds, if not thousands of charlatans listed there, spouting off nonsense in every direction.

    You’ll also find some pretty bright people taking money from the gullible. For example offering un-scientific cures for cancer etc. But for some reason most of this seems to be okay when compared to the evil Billy Meier.

    The only reason I can find why Meier stands head and shoulders above these shysters in the eyes of the scientific establishment is because certain governments have made a point of targeting him. I personally am not one for the conspiracy theory, but a huge amount of money and time has now been invested in this case – but why?

    What I am trying to convey is that Meier is as much of a victim in all of this as the FIGU folk who hang on his every word. Of course nobody lives in the Pleiades; it’s a young super hot cluster 400 light years from here. Absolutely nobody, apart from the odd space docked astronaut lives anywhere beyond the Earth’s atmosphere. Okay?

    The main reason why his contact notes are so rubbish, is because the people who contacted him were making it up on the fly as they were going along. The real story is not about Meier, it’s about complex Mayan creation myth type messages left in darkness upon corn fields. These messages point to that long anticipated end date in the Mayan calendar next year, and it’s this terminal end date that western governments would like to nullify, even more so than Meier!

    Over millennia there have most certainly been other calendar endings that have concluded without incident. Unfortunately, the governments that sent out the Phd’s to debunk Meier know that this Mayan end date in 2012 is unlikely to go unnoticed. They seem to think that by smearing the hell out of this poor guy it’ll somehow soften the inevitable panic when things get seen in the skies next year. How’s that for scientific logic?

    If you really think it’s all about Meier and his crazy claims, please check out this website to find out how wide the Meier story gets, and why even big bad governments are getting worried. http://www.howcropcirclesaremade.com

  32. Ted N.on 27 Sep 2011 at 8:24 am

    @Judy7: “You say: “Pol Pot and Idi Amin were certainly dangerous megalomaniacs and despicable individuals, but they did not mess with science.” So it’s okay to slaughter millions of innocent people just so long as you don’t mess with my test tubes. Doh!”

    Maybe i did not clearly express my thoughts.
    No, it is not okay to slaughter millions of innocent people (not even one single person) just so long as you don’t mess with my test tubes.
    It is not what i suggested; in response to your question as to why scientists focus their attention to Billy Meier instead of to the Pol Pots and Idi Amins of this world, i pointed out, that the interest of scientists for Billy Meier is especially due to the scientific claims of Billy Meier.
    Pol Pot and Idi Amin made no scientific claims, which are worth the scrutiny of scientists.

    There are other bodies and institutions, which deal with the like of Pol Pot and Idi Amin, like the international tribunal, Human Rights organizations, …

    I haven’t yet seen any evidence of the involvement of any government in the efforts of scientists to scrutinize the claims and ‘evidence’ of Billy Meier; so if you possess any, do please post it on this forum.

    Thanks for the link, i will have a look at it.

  33. Ted N.on 27 Sep 2011 at 8:51 am

    PS: i just noticed, that i misspelled your name; sorry Judy1.

    By the way, on the Mayan calendar and the end date in 2012 (yet another new age extravaganza, as far as i am concerned), you might be interested to know, that Billy Meier stated that it is all rubbish and that he alone knows what would happen in 2012:
    2012: What We Have Brought Upon Ourselves
    http://futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_476

    Thanks again.

  34. Judy1on 27 Sep 2011 at 9:41 am

    Yes Ted, this is what I mean. Meier was misinformed about 2012 as much as anyone else. The people who built the pyramids of Teotihuacan in central Mexico and later moved down to the Yucatan to build the Mayan pyramids were known as the people of the ‘rattle constellation,’ otherwise known as the Pleiades cluster.

    This is where the Pleiades comes into the Meier story – not because anyone lives there, but because the advanced culture that built these great monuments to time, regarded this area of the sky as sacred.

    The descendants of this culture are still alive today, and it’s they who have momentarily contacted a few people. From what I can gather, they’re insisting that whether we like it or not we must all sit up and take notice of their sacred calendar’s end date next year.

    Why this should be of any importance to anyone else living on the Earth is beyond me. But that is what these contacts with Meier have been building up to.

    Apologies to you Ted if I misrepresented what you said in that earlier message.

  35. Ted N.on 28 Sep 2011 at 10:25 am

    It is all fine, Judy1.
    I appreciate the information on those ancient civilizations and the sharing of your reading and views on the issue at hand.

    I am still exploring the website you kindly indicated, and i have to say, it is really fascinating.

    As for the Mayan calendar and the end date in 2012, well, we will see in 2013 or… we won’t!
    One way or another, we will know the truth by then.

    If nothing happens in 2012, except the events, which scientists expect and anticipate, based on their studies, observations and calculations (like a possible high solar activity at the end of the natural 11-year solar cycle, which would reach its peak in 2013 and might damage satellites and unprotected powers grids, according to many astronomers), i wonder which excuses the likes of Billy Meier would come up with, and whether their ‘believers’ would swallow that one too.

  36. Judy1on 30 Sep 2011 at 6:37 am

    Thanks for looking at the website Ted. I know that all of the 2012 hype seems far fetched to the western mind, but all the same, I feel that it’ll still be worthwhile, in some sense to prepare ourselves for aerial events due to take place next year, because western governments certainly aren’t going to help.

    I know the Meier story is getting tedious, but if one was to ignore the stupid ET stuff and concentrate on the odd hidden clue embedded in the story, we find that it’s all rather prosaic.

    Clue 1: The ET’s said to Meier that they live on a planet called ‘Erra.’ This is a clumsy play on the word ‘Error.’ Yes, Meier’s contacts are genuinely saying that this opening statement is in error, because they too know that the Pleiades are way too hot to support human life.

    If the contacts had given out the actual coordinates for where they’ve been hiding away on terra firma, one can easily imagine what the response would’ve been from the average resourceful government … one massive search party!

    Clue 2: The contact name ‘Asket’ is a slightly less clumsy play on the word ‘Aztec.’ The definition of the word ‘Aztec’ is: the people of ‘Aztlan.’

    Aztlan is another name for Atlantis. Before you Phd’s start running for the hills, please recognise that however unlikely this may seem; an ordinarily verifiable archaeological site (albeit underwater) always trumps the extraterrestrial red herring.

    Yes, please leave your disbelief at the door because the American government (God bless em!) have indeed already found Atlantis, though unfortunately even you Phd’s have been deemed unworthy of receiving the data.

    Clue 3: The contact name ‘Quetzal’ is obviously a shortening of ‘Quetzalcoatl.’

    Quetzalcoatl oversaw the construction of the Aztec Pyramids of Teotihuacan in central Mexico and, in his later incarnation as Kukulcan oversaw the Mayan ones built in the Yucatan. These are the monuments to time which point to the end date of a sacred calendar due to conclude in the year 2012.

    QED … Meier was duped!

    http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2011/eastkennett2/comments.html

    http://www.howcropcirclesaremade.com

  37. Ted N.on 03 Oct 2011 at 3:30 am

    Hi Judy1,
    I am afraid, i am losing you here.
    For me, Billy Meier is just an eccentric science-fiction writer, who chose himself as the mean character, read ‘hero’, of his writings and adventures (i have no problem with that), who somehow has some people believe, that his fantastic adventures and the other characters therefrom are real, despite common sense, logic, sciences and reason.
    You would notice, that those who believe Billy Meier, accept as a matter of course, although without no evidence whatsoever, notions like:
    - UFO’s being spaceships from other worlds;
    - the existence of ET’s (up to now, not more than a rational hypothesis, a probability), their visitations of Earth and interactions with people down here and the creation of us, people, by those ET’s;
    - some of us got here, to Earth, aboard… spaceships;
    - prophethood and the idea of ‘The Chosen One’ (Billy Meier himself, of course!);
    - incarnation and reincarnation, plus the existence of the spirit or spirit form and its faculty to reincarnate;
    - time travel (in both the past and the future);
    - prophecies and (non science-based) predictions;
    - the existence of other dimensions and of time-shifted worlds filled with human and non-human civilizations;
    - the existence of a supreme entity, called ‘creation’, which gives laws and recommendations to mankind(s);

    The most incredible thing by those ‘believers’ is, that they believe Billy Meier, despite the lack of a single independent source backing his claims, for all his witnesses or people, who claim to have seen his ET’s and/or their ships, are either members of his cult or they believe in his case (which they ‘investigated’ and wrote and sell books and other items from it…), and when they are not, they then always conveniently choose to remain anonymous and their anonymous testimonies and/or (fuzzy) pictures are delivered to the ‘believers’ by Billy Meier himself!
    You won’t believe it, but those ‘believers’ are happy with that and they don’t ask for hard, conclusive evidence or any sort of confirmation from an independent source!

    All the best.

  38. mahigitamon 03 Oct 2011 at 10:03 am

    Hello everyone,

    “Are you seriously saying, that those aliens flew through huge space and time and from other dimension to submit us a…puzzle to solve?!
    Come on!
    Besides, this hypothesis would contradict not only the core reason for those aliens to provide Billy Meier with physical evidence, that is to convince

    mankind of the reality of the existence of those aliens, of their visitation of earth and contact with Billy Meier, so that their and his message would be

    taken seriously, but also the whole idea of the importance and urgency of their alleged message to mankind.”

    You are absoultely wrong in stating that, “core reason for those aliens to provide Billy Meier with physical evidence, that is to convince mankind of the

    reality of the existence of those aliens….”.

    The main reasons why the alleged plejaren are here has been clearly stated out in Contact Reports 1 & 3(Jan & Feb, 1975).

    1] To spread the lost spiritual teachings(Obligated mission, aimed at the sects and religions, along with the related underdevelopment of the human

    consciousness & avoid the impending World War III)

    2] To warn earth people of negative ET races in the universe because the time is approaching when a conflict with these degenerate human creatures becomes

    unavoidable

    Why do alleged plejaren not appear en masse and show themselves to the broad public instead of providing evidence thorugh Billy Meier that can be tampered

    with by any third parties who would obviously gain much by suppressing the information present in the conversation reports & the reality of the case ?

    Before attempting to answer that, one should think about the various ET races that could exist in the universe and what would they do if they happen to find

    planet Earth ?
    What kind of consequences would emerge from such an interaction ?
    Would they outright land publicly, don’t care or attack us(negative ET races) or would they follow some strategy(Benevolent ET races) without causing any

    chaotic disturbance to our evolutionary process ?

    There are quite a few hypotheses or scenarios that has been putforward for quite a long time by individuals or panel of experts/scientists on the kind of

    interaction of a Benevolent ET Races, if they happened to find us. You may want to look here

    Konstantin Tsiolkovsky’s solution to the problem what we now call as Fermi’s Paradox – 1933
    Proposed Studies on the Implications of Peaceful Space Activities for Human Affairs – NASA study, 1961
    Codex Galactica – Iosif Shklovsky and Carl Sagan, 1966
    Prime Directive – Star Trek, 1967
    UFO Hypotheses and Survival Questions – NSA study, 1968
    The Zoo Scenario – John Ball, 1973
    Leaky Embargo – James Deardorff, 1985
    The Interdict Scenario – Martyn Fogg, 1987….etc

    This kind of putting in place a puzzle or strategy is as old as conception of religious/esoteric texts, where the one who knows certain keys/codes can only

    unlock the true meaning of the text and thus not allowing others to know the true meaning which might otherwise cause harm to the individual or to the

    society at large. If one could understand the deep implications & consequences that araises from the ‘Contact with ETs Scenarios’, then with that gained knowledge we could understand any Contactee case including Billy Meier’s.

    Ted, what strategy do you think would the Benevolent ET’s(higher evolutionary level) adapt while contacting us ?
    I see that many here are already polarised of their judgements on the Meier case. I have a problem with the ‘Special pleading’ argument. Because like every other argument it has its limitations and it would not fit every scenario. By choosing only one alternative and avoiding others can be a biased move. What Steven Novella and others fail to consider is the possibility of such a scenario. I will explain this later as the discussion goes.

  39. Judy1on 03 Oct 2011 at 10:46 am

    Hello Ted, you say that the Meier fundamentalists “don’t ask for hard, conclusive evidence or any sort of confirmation from an independent source.” Yes, I get what you’re saying, and I feel that I too am now in danger of becoming just as tedious as your average apologists.

    Where I part company with the FIGU folk is that I believe that these screwball messages were fed to him by real human beings and not ET’s, and that these people contacted him to create an intrigue.

    Even though Billy has gone somewhat ‘off message,’ the main thrust of the contact is prosaic. It was simply to get good photographs of these Beamships into the media well before 2012.

    Here’s another clue: a ludicrously random number of 311, 040, 000, 000 ,000 years was given to Meier by his contacts to represent what they call their ‘Greattime’ period.
    The Goodman-Martinez-Thompson-2 or GMT 2 calculation for the start of the 13th Baktun cycle of the Mayan calendar (which ends in 2012) began in the year 3114 BC.

    The clues are there! These people of the ‘rattle constellation’ (yet don’t live there) produced another big clue this July 2011. All we have to do is keep reading the messages and all will become clear.

    http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2011/rivar/comments.html

  40. Ted N.on 03 Oct 2011 at 1:09 pm

    Thanks, Judy1; i will consider your feedbacks.

    @mahigitam,
    Tell me please, why would one listen to words (or warnings, or teachings, as you please) allegedly from aliens, when one has no certainty on the very existence of those aliens and when one is not provided with any conclusive evidence of their existence, let alone that of their visitations of this planet?
    Isn’t putting the cart before the horse – or even having the cart alone?

    Furthermore, why the physical evidence if not for the purpose of substantiating the claims of Billy Meier??
    (on this very one, you may want to read or reread the alleged explanations of Semjase, during her very first alleged meeting and conversation with Billy Meier, sentence 17.)

    You also left out the most important part of my sentence you quoted, namely “… of their visitation of earth and contact with Billy Meier, SO THAT their and his message would be taken seriously, but also the whole idea of the importance and urgency of their alleged message to mankind.”, which makes my point.

    The ‘could exist’ in your sentence “one should think about the various ET races that could exist in the universe and what would they do if they happen to find planet Earth ?” is very revealing: it is all speculation.

    “I see that many here are already polarised of their judgements on the Meier case.”
    I do not quite see where you got this one from; all that is happening, is that Judy1 has another perspective on this matter and i am trying to follow her.
    Besides, the judgements of people on many (if not most of) topics are polarised; it doesn’t mean much, beside showing, that the Meier case is a dark story.

    As for the studies you posted, well people run studies, write scenarios about anything, really; it does not make what people write about, the topic and scenario, any real.

    And finally, if the same theoretical studies you posted are still not enough for you, then show me one single benevolent ET (or any ET at all) or any hard, physical, scientific evidence of the existence of one benevolent ET (or of any ET at all), and i would tell you which strategy i think the Benevolent ET’s (higher evolutionary level) would adapt while contacting us.
    Otherwise, it is only special pleading. Again.

    All the best.

    PS: by the way, do you have any conclusive evidence of the following?
    - UFO’s being spaceships from other worlds;
    - ET’s visitations of Earth and interactions with people down here and the creation of us, people, by those ET’s;
    - some of us got here, to Earth, aboard… spaceships;
    - prophethood and the idea of ‘The Chosen One’ (Billy Meier himself, of course!);
    - incarnation and reincarnation, plus the existence of the spirit or spirit form and its faculty to reincarnate;
    - time travel (in both the past and the future);
    - prophecies and (non science-based) predictions;
    - the existence of other dimensions and of time-shifted worlds filled with human and non-human civilizations;
    - the existence of a supreme entity, called ‘creation’, which gives laws and recommendations to mankind(s).

    Or you just …believe?

  41. mahigitamon 04 Oct 2011 at 3:09 am

    Hello,

    “As for the studies you posted, well people run studies, write scenarios about anything, really; it does not make what people write about, the topic and scenario, any real….”

    “The ‘could exist’ in your sentence “one should think about the various ET races that could exist in the universe and what would they do if they happen to find planet Earth ?” is very revealing: it is all speculation.”

    My approach in understanding the case is based on the scenarios/hypothesis proposed by various scientists, sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists & political scientists. So i request everyone to first read, what the above panel has to say; unless one doesnot regards all that they say has no basis in reality & illogical. I dont think anyone here would think that way. Nobody ever said that just because someone speculated/theorized of a scenario, it turns to be real. These are various strategical-behaviour models generated by some of the best minds on earth, of a probable Benevolent ET interaction towards us. These are entirely based on solid science. As we observe from the contact reports & words of Billy that they are Benevolent ET race. So, one could now having a testing methodology by which we could compare where the Meier’s case contradicts or agrees with that of those scientific models created earlier by our best minds.

    Are you saying that, the speculation of Life beyond earth by scientists is not based on science(correct me if i have misuderstood).If that is the case then you are seriously mistaken. All the present scientific models we use today are once speculations based on mathematics & science. Existence of intelligent beings beyond planet earth has been given with very high probability by most of the scientists which are based on studies of life on earth and space. And we have various models on the kinds of life & behaviour that lifeforms adapt to or evolve to based on countless studies from evolutionary, social, cultural & political sciences(from nature to psychology of higher intelligence,humans).

    “..show me one single benevolent ET (or any ET at all) or any hard, physical, scientific evidence of the existence of one benevolent ET (or of any ET at all), and i would tell you which strategy i think the Benevolent ET’s (higher evolutionary level) would adapt while contacting us. Otherwise, it is only special pleading. Again.”

    ‘hard, physical, scientific evidence of the existence of one benevolent ET’…? If you could have taken time to read the above models proposed by experts. YOu would know why asking for a ‘hard, physical, scientific evidence’ is illogical. As i said above, we can take Billy Meier case and evaluate it based on those models. Whether the ‘Special Pleading’ is there or not neither proves the case a hoax nor real.

    “Tell me please, why would one listen to words (or warnings, or teachings, as you please) allegedly from aliens, when one has no certainty on the very existence of those aliens and when one is not provided with any conclusive evidence of their existence, let alone that of their visitations of this planet?”

    The word ‘conclusive evidence’ here makes all the difference. Words like ‘conclusive evidence’, ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’, ‘undeniable evidence’ was never mentioned by Billy nor Plejaren to be presented to ‘prove’ his contacts & his message. It all makes clear when one read various ET strategies proposed by scientists. Fortunately we have evidence to analyse and come to a conclusion on the Meier case. Which we would like to discuss in later posts.

    “PS: by the way, do you have any conclusive evidence of the following?…….Or you just …believe?”

    I request you to first study those models, whose foundations you are contradicting. I dont reject nor accept blindly that information. They sound interesting which has some parallels to our ancient philosophical teachings & theories in our present ‘fringe’ & Mainstream sciences.

    “Besides, the judgements of people on many (if not most of) topics are polarised; it doesn’t mean much, beside showing, that the Meier case is a dark story.”

    Being polarised, biased & emotional on a topic steers us away from the objective standpoint. It creates unconscious bias and i can see it in almost all posting regarding this case.
    For example,
    1.28456…(unbiased) ≠ 1.3(biased)
    That numbers after the decimal point makes all the difference. We round off the number to suit our needs and goals, but it never equals the other. A person with conscious/unconscious bias would tend to brushoff those numbers(critical points in Meier case) after the decimal point. Since the members here have already taken their sides, i think it is better to adapt a procedure where one points out the logical inconsitencies,fallacies, misrepresentations..and so on in others arguments so that we arrive at a final conclusion. Theories, speculations, propositions should never be equalled with truth & reality. Everyone accepts this but the problem araises when defining the dividing line between theories/opinions and facts.

    “Furthermore, why the physical evidence if not for the purpose of substantiating the claims of Billy Meier?? (on this very one, you may want to read or reread the alleged explanations of Semjase, during her very first alleged meeting and conversation with Billy Meier, sentence 17.)”

    What is the most common mistake religious fundamentalist’s do best, they read lines not only out of context but also fail to integrate other points regarding the same topic present into a single coherent meaning. So naturally contradictions araise which they fail to acknowledge.
    Semjase’s sentence can only be made meaningful and coherent when one also takes time to read the several other related points present in the contact notes of which i will only point out a few.

    “As evidence of this truth, we gave you the opportunity to take sharp pictures of one of our beamships.
    There is no interest in showing ourselves publicly to the broad masses.
    For these reasons, it is best to cultivate contacts with only a few select Earth humans for the time being, and through them, to slowly impart the knowledge of our existence and tasks, and prepare them for the things to come.
    Do not intervene in affairs/events of other civilizations unless there are worldwide catastrophic implications emerging from them or there is a direct relationship of the incident to Plejaren
    Maintain ‘Official contacts’ only with civilizations that have mastered space travel & also have reached a certain level of spiritual perfection”

    Based on these and several other points spread throughout the contact notes, demanding for a ‘conclusive evidence’, ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’, ‘undeniable evidence’ is illogical and contradicts their Strategy. What role and function does the physical evidence play in Meier case is best understood from models proposed by our scientists. I dont want to copy-paste what they have to say. So after you have gone through them, we could discuss on their models relation to Meier case.

    “You also left out the most important part of my sentence you quoted, namely “… of their visitation of earth and contact with Billy Meier, SO THAT their and his message would be taken seriously, but also the whole idea of the importance and urgency of their alleged message to mankind.”, which makes my point.”

    No i didnt, i just represented it with,”…”.

    P.S: My suggestion is to find out any contradictions in the Meier case when compared with the models proposed by our scientists. After we are satisified with that, we can then move onto the evidence section. Problem araises only when one looks at the evidence as having no relation whatsoever to the strategy the alleged Plejaren have adopted. Evidence is itself a part of the strategy. Looking at fragments or without acknowledging the complexity of the case at hand are some of the several pitfalls many succumb to.

  42. Ted N.on 04 Oct 2011 at 3:58 am

    @mahigitam: re “on this very one, you may want to read or reread the alleged explanations of Semjase, during her very first alleged meeting and conversation with Billy Meier, sentence 17.”, let me make it easier to you:

    “17. As evidence of this truth, we gave you the opportunity to take sharp pictures of one of our beamships.
    18. In addition, we will give you other opportunities to obtain even better and sharper photographic evidence.”
    http://futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Contact_Report_001

    There is obviously no place for excuses, when the evidence presented by Billy Meier is dubious, unless one inserts far-fetched conspiracies, the infamous ‘Gizeh intelligence’ and the ‘Men in Black’ in the picture…
    So, all that ‘plausible deniability’ and ‘readiness to accept the evidence’ thing is not more than post-hoc reasoning and indeed desperate special pleading.

    Speaking of the ‘Men in Black’, who play such a crucial ‘villain role’ in the adventures of Billy Meier, do you have any kind of evidence of their existence, apart from the hollywood movie ‘Men in Black’?
    What about the ‘Gizeh intelligence’?
    And the ‘Syrians’ (sic), who allegedly destroyed the precious artifacts on Mars, the hard physical evidence of the ancient history of human life and civilization on Mars, which Billy Meier promised to you?
    Do you possess any evidence of their existence?
    You know what, i won’t be surprised, if it appeared, that Billy Meier actually wrote about that future discovery, after that what looked like a face on Mars was discovered and its picture made public by our hard working scientists and that the ‘Syrians’ appeared to spoil the party, when it became clear, that that structure could be of natural, geological nature.

    By the way, i am still curious about your assessment of the substance of this alleged message of Billy Meier and his aliens to the US government:
    http://futureofmankind.co.uk/meier/gaiaguys/ET.to.USA.1979.htm

    Does this really make sense to you?
    Does this offer seem logical, rational, convincing, acceptable, wise to you?
    What makes that Jim-Jones so special, that those aliens dedicated much of their message to him??
    Could you find any trace of any ‘higher evolutionary level’ in this message?

  43. Ted N.on 04 Oct 2011 at 6:01 am

    @mahigitam, PS:
    First on this “Are you saying that, the speculation of Life beyond earth by scientists is not based on science(correct me if i have misuderstood).”

    I correct you, you misunderstood: “up to now, not more than a rational hypothesis, a probability”.
    Alien life may well exist somewhere in the endless vastness of space, it is not that difficult to reach this conclusion and build models thereon; nothing however says, that those aliens are already here or have ever been here, for that matter.

    Now, do you realize, that you are seriously writing about… phantoms?

    All your argumentation comes basically down to this:
    “Based on these and several other points spread throughout the contact notes, demanding for a ‘conclusive evidence’, ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’, ‘undeniable evidence’ is illogical and contradicts their Strategy. What role and function does the physical evidence play in Meier case is best understood from models proposed by our scientists.”
    “My suggestion is to find out any contradictions in the Meier case when compared with the models proposed by our scientists.”

    This is truly amazing, for you supposed a purposeful strategy of the aliens of Billy Meier, without any evidence to that effect and despite their alleged own words on the reason, why they provide evidence of their alleged contacts with Billy, which despite all your sophism, is intented to serve as a prove of the reality of those alleged contacts (as opposed to other alleged contacts of other ‘hoaxers’), and now you want to, post-hoc, use the theoretical models of scientists to justify the blatant and embarrassing insufficiency of the same evidence of Billy Meier!
    The almighty aliens of the great Billy Meier, who have only contempt for scientists and their works, need and count on theoretical models of the same scientists to prove their existence! The world is definitely on its head.

    Theoretical models are still not facts, they are only models, contrary to what Billy Meier claims his contacts to be.
    Sciences are built on facts and evidence; models are either supported by facts and evidence and become scientific knowledge, or they are not and they are rejected or they remain…just models.

    So once again, Billy Meier needs to present hard, physical, scientific and conclusive evidence to back his extraordinary claims, if he doesn’t have that and you can not submit that to this forum for study by the suited scientists, then i frankly do not see the point of this discussion

    PS: you would better watch out with this stance “Based on these and several other points spread throughout the contact notes, demanding for a ‘conclusive evidence’, ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’, ‘undeniable evidence’ is illogical and contradicts their Strategy.”, for your colleague, Michael Horn, is trying hard to make a career exactly on those ‘conclusive evidence’, ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’, ‘indeniable evidence’, …

  44. SteveAon 04 Oct 2011 at 7:32 am

    Judy1: “Yes, please leave your disbelief at the door because the American government (God bless em!) have indeed already found Atlantis, though unfortunately even you Phd’s have been deemed unworthy of receiving the data.”

    Fascinating intel.

    But raises the questions:

    A) Where is it? and
    B) How do you know about it?

  45. Judy1on 04 Oct 2011 at 12:40 pm

    Hello Steven, Atlantis (or Aztlan, which was its original name) was found in the early 1980’s below the Little Bahama Bank in the Bahamas. The reason that I know about this, is because I was lucky enough to have seen the underwater footage at the time.

    Let me confirm that we’re not talking about a couple of misshapen rocks here – this is one proper sunken city with clearly defined buildings and pyramids. Are your eyeballs starting to roll? Apologies in anticipation!

    As usual with most conspiracy theories, there is no way I can verify this, but all the same, here’s a version of the same conspiracy seen from a different angle.

    Dr Sandra Noble heads an august organization known as FAMSI (The Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies). The central remit of FAMSI (not that they’ll own up to it) is to narrow down within the Mesoamerican landscape the whereabouts of this lost land known as Aztlan.

    Even today in Mexico there is much consternation and political discourse over the whereabouts of this fabled land. There is even an entire political movement there devoted to vouchsafing in law the location of Aztlan originating beyond the northern border of Mexico in southern California.

    The idea is; that if this political movement could find evidence for this original location of Aztlan further into southern California, it would rid Mexicans of any need for passport control here.

    One can easily see how important this issue might become for this impoverished part of the world, so let us give three cheers for the work of FAMSI. I’m sure their research will very soon prove to be of invaluable assistance to their claim.

    As I have already stated in a previous message, the definition of the word Aztec is: the people of Aztlan.

    So from this starting point, one might imagine that although FAMSI is a US organisation headed by an American (Dr Noble), the city FAMSI would choose as a base in the USA would obviously be one within easy reach of Mexico – say Los Angeles or maybe San Antonio. That way it would only be a short trip across the border for them to continue on with their research for evidence for Aztlan.

    But no, The Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies is actually located in Miami Florida, overlooking the Little Bahama Bank.

    You just couldn’t make it up!

    Regards Judy

    http://www.famsi.org/listinfo.html

  46. mahigitamon 06 Oct 2011 at 7:43 am

    “17. As evidence of this truth, we gave you the opportunity to take sharp pictures of one of our beamships.
    18. In addition, we will give you other opportunities to obtain even better and sharper photographic evidence.”

    I dont see any contradiction here. Semjase offered sharp pictures of beamships and Billy has it. Billy’s photo albums are said to be one of the best UFO

    collection ever. Contradiction only raises when one reads/interprets things which are not present.

    “Speaking of the ‘Men in Black’, who play such a crucial ‘villain role’ in the adventures of Billy Meier, do you have any kind of evidence of their

    existence, apart from the hollywood movie ‘Men in Black’…..What about the ‘Gizeh intelligence’?
    And the ‘Syrians’ (sic), who allegedly destroyed the precious artifacts on Mars, the hard physical evidence of the ancient history of human life and

    civilization on Mars, which Billy Meier promised to you?
    Do you possess any evidence of their existence? ”

    Forget about MIB, Syrians, Gizeh for a moment in the Meier case.
    What kind of evidence one needs(Can you suggest one) to prove conclusively or undeniably the existence of the most secret organisations, to the whole world ?

    Or can we at all prove their existence conclusively or undeniably to the whole world to see ?
    Dont you think its silly to ask for undenible/conclusive evidence of their existence. The entire existence and execution of such organisations(CIA, KGB, NSA,

    MI6,special forces teams, assasination groups, non-state armed groups, hired assasins…) is fundamentally builtup on secrecy. What value & point in having

    such a secret organisation in the first place, if the case at hand can be simply proved to anyone anywhere just because someone somewhere asked for its

    ‘undeniable’ evidence.
    It is secrecy that protects nations from foreign or internal elements, that gives advantage to military & national security experts against enemies, that can

    also be misused by state or non-state actors,which is common knowledge(unless one locks himself in his/her room forever). This are the foundations on which

    our day-to-day life depends, runs smoothly & in other cases severaly negatively affected & also what every good citizen is fighting for.

    Now, coming to the alleged most secret/security/intelligence organisations ever created; for example MIB(if it exists at all) or others by whatever name one

    calls them. Why demand things that we cant conclusively prove or disprove but can only infer?(Unless one imagines oneself to be in a Utopian society where a

    perfect socio-politico-legal systems exist). Forget about unofficially acknowledged secret groups/services, we cant even prove conclusively/deniably what the

    officially acknowledged secret services do. Take the examples of Operation Northwoods where US government planned false-flag attacks to go to war with cuba.

    This is the world, where there is a conflict of political/economic/cultural interests, ambitions, hopes, anxieties, fears,…strategies are drawn out and

    executed to benefit specific individuals/entities/organisations. Your way of reasoning paints an utopian society, where the security, military intelligences,

    religious fanatics/heads, politicians, state & military-industrial complexes & corporate strategies all desire the truth and do anything to save the truth;

    which is complete nonsense. If anyone is subscribing to that(i dont think you are), anymore discussion would be a waste of time. Our failure to take into

    consideration the ground realities of the world & its relation to the case and narrow down for our convenience is pathetic.

    Infact we will never be able to prove their existence and if we did as i said above, there’s no point in creating such a secret entity in the first place.

    Your kind of reasoning bothers me. Evidence in scientific research & investigative fields like science, archaelogy, forensics,… where the the person/group

    carries the investigation/experimentation, peer reviewing, repetition & reproducibility of the phenomenon is highly demanded & is most valuable; even though

    evaluating evidence requires unbiased & neutral observation, we seldom see circumstances where there is no unbias towards the scientific evidence

    (check:history & philosophy of science). But using the same standard of proof which we use in scientific research to everything else is unheard of & is

    illogical even in legal domain.
    Standard of proof varies from field to field & also in the same field depending upon the case to be proved.Examples include archaeology, pure mathematics,

    theoritical physics, legal systems(2 types for civil and criminal cases),….list goes on. The kind of standard of proof you are asking can only be valid in

    scientific domain but not in any other. Ground realities, facts, conspiracy to asssasinate person/character, kidnap attempts, steal/manipulate

    evidence,….to check whether the above things are true or not is not the domain of routine scientific scrutiny and should be left with on-site

    investigators(public & private officers).

    I am not suggesting that we should swallow any bs that is thrown at us from those who have no evidence but only their statements to support their claims. At

    the same time, no physical evidence even doesnot mean that he/she is a hoaxer. Almost all fall to cognitive dissonance & labels others as hoaxers/fruads with

    no sufficient evidence.

    Most sensible, intelligent thing to do is to form hypotheses as to what kind of evidence will be available if such secret organisations happen to have

    involved themselves with Billy Meier case. What kind of traces could we find, if any exists at all. Our common sense tells us that such secret orgs wont left

    behind any hard evidence that points directly to their existence. Even if they left some evidence, it only be indirect, circumstantial & allows us only to

    speculate as to who might have carried out such an operation. This is where real world kicks in. Witnesses & their testimonies are the most important &

    indispensable in real world(legal, social, cultural, historical…) & the least important in scientific research.

    If you want to discuss the scientific evidence that is available, i am happy to share what i know. If you want to talk on indirect or circumstantial evidence

    like witnesses, expert witness, things left over by assasins, evidence outside of Meier..& how is it related/connected to the list of evidences in Meier

    case, fine. But here the standard of proof would be different to that of that is required in science domain. And this connecting multiple evidences into a

    single coherent story is the most difficult thing to do and i have never heard any logical counter-arguments that explains everything in the case.

  47. mahigitamon 06 Oct 2011 at 7:44 am

    “And the ‘Syrians’ (sic), who allegedly destroyed the precious artifacts on Mars, the hard physical evidence of the ancient history of human life and civilization on Mars, which Billy Meier promised to you?”

    Promised to who ?

    “http://futureofmankind.co.uk/meier/gaiaguys/ET.to.USA.1979.htm”

    What and why it is written the way it is written and from what perspective and intended-goals have they written can be subjective;infact to arrive at a reasonable conclusion one needs first to undertand the scope of the mission. If one fails at that level, theres no use in discussing it now. Let us discusss the objective evidence and not the subjective.

    “…nothing however says, that those aliens are already here or have ever been here, for that matter.”

    Where did i say that the existence of Life outside earth is proved from theoritical models of experts ?

    “Sciences are built on facts and evidence; models are either supported by facts and evidence and become scientific knowledge, or they are not and they are rejected or they remain…just models.”

    You misunderstood the point. These models are built on facts from our sciences with some basic assumptions that same elements, natural laws(physical and biological) exist in other parts of the universe. Models/theories/hypotheses are not created out of thin air, they are based on facts that have been accumulated over centuries, which means they are the best explanations we have at present.

    “So once again, Billy Meier needs to present hard, physical, scientific and conclusive evidence to back his extraordinary claims, if he doesn’t have that and you can not submit that to this forum for study by the suited scientists, then i frankly do not see the point of this discussion”

    I am not suggesting that there is no evidence to look for us, infact there is plenty if one wants to look. The above models proposed by experts can be a helpful guide in checking out the claims of Meier. It seems you didnt want to understand the implications of the above proposed models. If it is so hard for you, to take into consideration the ground realities & the its influence on the Meier case; i dont expect everyone to have the same perspective. What one needs to take into account while investigating a case which is the first step decides everything further along.

    Are you saying that Billy Meier or anyone else has to submit a “hard, physical, scientific and conclusive evidence” to prove their extraordinary claims. So the scientists can take evidence like metal samples, then test, retest, checked out by other labs, peer-reviewed,..so on. So far so good. Your whole demand lies on the basic assumption that, the powers that be, military & security intellgencies of powerful nations, politicians, military-industry complexes & corporations do nothing when an out of earth metal sample made of ET technology(or any evidence) from an ET race would be handed to bunch of people(non-elite) to test.

    This assumption is baseless, immature and is dismissed by anyone & even experts in intelligence & elite stratum.(if you still persist, fine lets end this discussion).
    Professor Allen Tough’s article, “Factors that might encourage Secrecy” is very revealing. And astrophysicist Ronald Bracewell quote that “Every authority which is in a position to keep this a secret will try to do so at all costs, no matter what the message itself is..a contact with another civilization is automatically ‘the most strictly guarded and best evaluated military state secret in the history of the earth’ “. There are many papers published by thinktanks, experts, professors,..on this interaction scenario. If you want to dismiss all this as loony, by saying just models, until they become facts through real interaction with ET’s, they are just models which has no basis in reality; fine.

    A reasonable person can easily understand this critical issue and would ask to evaluate the available evidence & then decide. If you are willing to do that, i dont have a problem. Indeed i can show you evidence that points to the security agencies interest in Meier’ case. Please dont ask for ‘hard, physical, scientific and conclusive evidence’ in this issue. Lets be realistic.

    “or your colleague, Michael Horn, is trying hard to make a career exactly on those ‘conclusive evidence’, ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’, ‘indeniable evidence’, …”

    He is not my colleauge. Dont make irrelevant, absurd statements please.

  48. Ted N.on 06 Oct 2011 at 9:55 am

    @mahigitam, i see, that you only have the words of Billy Meier also regarding the ‘Men in Black’, ‘Gizeh Intelligence’, ‘Syrians’ and the likes, despite the crucial role they play in this whole story, especially when it goes wrong and whenever it goes wrong, which happens quite often!

    Well, i will leave there.

    Before i go, just let me tell you one more thing:
    At the beginning of this discussion, i wrote, that i have been following the case of Billy Meier for some time now.
    The point is, that my friend was a member of the FIGU Swiss discussion board for about 8 years, until a month or so ago.
    He read, studied most of the books of Billy Meier in the German language and was even about to become a FIGU passive member.
    He was then as zealous and fanatical as you are now in the defence of the incredible bunch of contradictions and discrepancies in the story of Billy Meier against critical thinking, logic, reason and just common sense, so much he wanted this tale to be true.
    It has been a terrible blow for him to realize, that he was fooled and was fooling himself, that the story told by Billy Meier is a fairy tale, the result of his fantasy and imagination and that even the best predictions and prophecies of Billy Meier, which greatly contributed to convince him, were mere retrodictions.

    My friend is now gradually learning to face reality and to pick up the pieces of his life gain, but it is very hard for him.

    I sincerely hope for you, that the disappointment to come, would be less devastating for you.

    All the best.

  49. Ted N.on 06 Oct 2011 at 11:13 am

    PS: my friend just corrected me.
    It appeared, that he has actually been a FIGU passive member for the last three years; i did not know that, obviously!
    He said, that has been attending the annual FIGU meetings of passive members in Hinterschmidrüti, Switzerland (whereas i thought, that he was then visiting his relatives in England), paying his dues, receiving FIGU publications, like ‘Stimme der Wassermannzeit’, ‘FIGU-Bulletin’ and ‘FIGU-Sonder-Bulletin’, and studying the spiritual teaching, called ‘Geisteslehre’, of Billy Meier, which, according to him, is just a compilation of excerpts from different books of Billy Meier and some numerology, and in which Billy Meier claims to teach people things, like how to be successful in life, meditation, telepathy, hypnosis, intuition and other things of the same kind.
    It appeared, that precisely the emptiness of that ‘Geisteslehre’ cast the first doubt in the mind of my poor friend.

    Anyway, good luck, mahigitam.

  50. mahigitamon 08 Oct 2011 at 4:48 am

    “i see, that you only have the words of Billy Meier also regarding the ‘Men in Black’, ‘Gizeh Intelligence’, ‘Syrians’ and the likes, despite the crucial role they play in this whole story, especially when it goes wrong and whenever it goes wrong, which happens quite often!”

    Again, its a false statement. There is somuch information outside Meier. I will leave it here;if you are interested, i dont have a problem to share. As i see, most of us can only see the world in a fragmented way.
    When we are dealing with a case(ET interaction) of enormous magnitude that has the potential to effect the whole of humanity in all dimensions of life;which demands the help of best minds on earth from all disciplines: historians, anthropologists, psychologists, linguists, philosophers, sociologists, political theorists, economists, physicists, biologists, policy makers, legislators, theologians, world leaders, Intelligence/security experts,….the least thing that we can do is to read what their results were, which they have arrived after meticulous research in their fields & also in conjunction with other fields(which is the most important of all).

    But what most of us do, is to narrow down such a world-changing event to a single discipline(science) demanding ‘hard, conclusive, undeniable proof’, which is ridiculous, immature and cannot come from an objective, scientific mind; and ignoring the rest of the valuable fields.

    “He was then as zealous and fanatical as you are now in the defence of the incredible bunch of contradictions and discrepancies in the story of Billy Meier against critical thinking, logic, reason and just common sense, so much he wanted this tale to be true.”

    I am not, i am just showing contradictions in your own statements, which you failed to backup. You haven’t shown any research paper by experts showing that ‘hard, conclusive, undeniable proof’ can sustain from the military-industrial complexes, power elite, corporations, defense/military intelligences,…and also that humanity wont be effected much from an ET interaction. Words like ‘critical thinking, logic, reason and common sense’ seems to have lost their meaning because everyone who doesnt employ them uses it all the time.

    I cannot comment on your friends decisions, not all are objective, unbiased, w/o preconceptions & intelligent. But i would like to see the points, that made your friend to take that decision. I am all ears.

    “I sincerely hope for you, that the disappointment to come, would be less devastating for you.”

    Thanks for your concern, Ted. But remember one thing, i dont gain or loose anything from saying this: When others show/raise our logical inconsistencies, contradictions, fallacies,…try to listen and change to adapt to your hypothesis, which you never seem to have attempted. You have even ignored the scientific possibilities/probabilities offered by hard working scientists & havent even shown any counter arguments for that. There exist many other alternatives for the same evidence; thats what happens in legal and scientific theories. Sticking onto only one alternative is the sign of killing objectivity.

    If we want to ignore this ET interaction scenario and directly go to the evidence, (metal samples, prophecies, …); I am happy to do that as well. Evidence of involvement of agencies to thwart, manipulate, steal evidence is ample and available in Meier story; if one wants to hear & am ready to discuss on that too.

    Have a nice day..

  51. Ted N.on 14 Dec 2011 at 3:56 am

    This will keep the advocates of Billy Meier busy for quite some time:

    October 2011, Methusalem Meier, Son of Billy Meier speaks out: “Dear Father, I’ve had enough!”

    “Methusalem Meier (38), the second-oldest son of the controversial Swiss “UFO prophet” Billy Meier (74), has finally had enough: In an open letter, twelve pages long, he casts a very harsh judgement on his father, but also on himself – and equally on the members of Billy’s controversial UFO sect, FIGU, and its alien fairytales.
    The accusations are substantial: Methusalem accuses his father of being physically violent both to his mother, Kalliope, and himself over the course of many years.

    Why has he done so publicly? “Because I want to distance myself once and for all from the nasty games and machinations of my father – in order finally to start a new life.”
    The entire german letter from Methusalem Meier can be downloaded as a PDF file (see the link below).
    In contrast to Billy, Methusalem Meier is willing at all times to answer questions: “I have nothing to hide. It’s high time that the world discovers the sad truth about my father.”

    Whoever wants to contact Methusalem Meier personally can do so at his direct e-mail address: methi77@bluewin.ch

    http://www.mysteries-magazin.com/index.php?op=news&func=news&id=5272&PHPSESSID=15bfd8cccd6a0cbe7e5f24625c48f423

    The complete open letter of Methusalem Meier in German is hier:
    http://www.mysteries-magazin.com/dokumente/meier.pdf

    Any special pleading left, Mahigitam?

  52. mahigitamon 15 Dec 2011 at 4:41 am

    @Ted N
    Its been a fact that right from the start of SSSC since 1978, there are many differences among most of the members of the group and their families & neighbours. Its all been documented in the contact notes. It is sad & unfortunate that the family disputes which should be private have to be dragged to online in public. If we keep that aside, what are you trying to say Ted ? Can you be more specific & how does the ‘special pleading’ fallacy come into this ?

  53. Ted N.on 15 Dec 2011 at 6:41 am

    If you really don’t see it, Mahigitam, then i am afraid, only Dr. Novella could possibly help you…

    With best Christmas and New Year wishes!

  54. Ted N.on 22 Oct 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Any Meier believers to defend this, rationalize it away?
    ‘Plejaren alphabet’, according to Billy Meier: http://futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Plejaren_and_Hebrew_Alphabet_Comparison
    Angelic/ Celestial alphabet: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/angelic.htm
    Quote: “The Angelic alphabet, which is also known as the Celestial alphabet, is derived from the Hebrew and Greek alphabets. It was created by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa during the 16th Century and was used for communication with angels.”
    See also Malachim alphabet of the same autor: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/malachim.htm

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