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	<title>Comments on: Louisiana, We Have a Problem</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: Fifi</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-9004</link>
		<dc:creator>Fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-9004</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that what happens in the US is that &quot;freedom&quot; is so heavily associated with patriotism and branded as not being associated with personal or social responsibility, that it gets used as a buzzword and doublespeak by not only the ID promoters, but also the whole www.healthfreedom.org aimed at getting rid of regulations that protect consumers (libertarians also use &quot;freedom&quot; even though they believe in erecting walls at imaginary lines in the sand to control people&#039;s activities and freedom of movement and also believe in dictating what a woman can do with her body).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that what happens in the US is that &#8220;freedom&#8221; is so heavily associated with patriotism and branded as not being associated with personal or social responsibility, that it gets used as a buzzword and doublespeak by not only the ID promoters, but also the whole <a href="http://www.healthfreedom.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.healthfreedom.org</a> aimed at getting rid of regulations that protect consumers (libertarians also use &#8220;freedom&#8221; even though they believe in erecting walls at imaginary lines in the sand to control people&#8217;s activities and freedom of movement and also believe in dictating what a woman can do with her body).</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8905</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8905</guid>
		<description>When the state takes away education and critical thinking, guess what Louisiana gets?  A White Supremist victory for the sect of David Duke(KKK) in the primary election for the  Louisianna House of Representatives in January 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the state takes away education and critical thinking, guess what Louisiana gets?  A White Supremist victory for the sect of David Duke(KKK) in the primary election for the  Louisianna House of Representatives in January 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8823</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8823</guid>
		<description>&quot;To further complicate things the overly complex state constitution all but spells out that if there is a budget shortfall that money should be taken from education.&quot;

I&#039;ll never understand that. Why would you take something as important as that away from your children? Quite literally, they are the future. Any investment in the mental/physical health of our children is as good as investing money in our future. Education is arguably the most important aspect of our infrastructure ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;To further complicate things the overly complex state constitution all but spells out that if there is a budget shortfall that money should be taken from education.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll never understand that. Why would you take something as important as that away from your children? Quite literally, they are the future. Any investment in the mental/physical health of our children is as good as investing money in our future. Education is arguably the most important aspect of our infrastructure &#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8813</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8813</guid>
		<description>Dr N- 
I’ve looked into this book.  From Kirkus review-

http://www.kirkusreviews.com/kirkusreviews/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003646777

“Still, in the end, it is Darwinism that raises the interesting questions, which is what good science is all about.
Substantive food for thought about natural selection and universal common descent, and surprisingly rich for so concise a treatment.”

(Kirkus can get things wrong- no doubt.  But I see no reason to think this is the case here)

As Howe points out- it might be more of a &#039;freedom for teachers to teach&#039; act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr N-<br />
I’ve looked into this book.  From Kirkus review-</p>
<p><a href="http://www.kirkusreviews.com/kirkusreviews/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003646777" rel="nofollow">http://www.kirkusreviews.com/kirkusreviews/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003646777</a></p>
<p>“Still, in the end, it is Darwinism that raises the interesting questions, which is what good science is all about.<br />
Substantive food for thought about natural selection and universal common descent, and surprisingly rich for so concise a treatment.”</p>
<p>(Kirkus can get things wrong- no doubt.  But I see no reason to think this is the case here)</p>
<p>As Howe points out- it might be more of a &#8216;freedom for teachers to teach&#8217; act.</p>
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		<title>By: howe</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8778</link>
		<dc:creator>howe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8778</guid>
		<description>Before you get up in arms over this, you should probably know a bit more about the Louisiana politics and public school system.  First, it was difficult for many teachers to bring outside &quot;materials&quot; of any type to present to a class, even though that has relaxed more in recent years, this does open up several doors in that sense.  There is also a tremendous amount of bureaucracy to overcome in order to change even small things in a class (I know that some local school boards require teachers to write out and have approval for all lesson plans for the entire year by the beginning of August).  So in some sense that may limit the fallout

Second this will not make much of a difference in whether or not Creationism/ID will be taught in classrooms.  It already is being taught in the classrooms of many of the teachers who lean that way ideologically.  For example my brother was told by his teacher in fifth grade that the reason the dinosaurs went extinct was that Noah wouldn&#039;t let them eat the other animals after they got off the ark, this was not some misunderstood joke or a nonsense answer, she actually believed this to be true.  The local schools many times will turn a blind eye to this sort of thing until some parent gets upset, which seems to happen very rarely.  

I myself was lucky enough to have had very excellent science teachers for most of my schooling, but in the middle school (7th-8th grade) I attended the principle said a prayer every Monday and Friday morning over the intercom.  This was not in the 40s or 50s this was in the early 90s.  This only stopped after a parent threatened to sue, at which point a &quot;student organization&quot; began giving the morning prayer, which was somehow alright as long as they didn&#039;t say &quot;Jesus&quot;.

Now I love my home state very dearly but one thing that many people don&#039;t realize is that in many ways it is two states.  The southern portion where most of the population is heavily french and spanish influenced and very multicultural, most of the technological infrastructure is located, and protestants (especially fundamentalist) are the minority.  And the northern portion which is primarily agrarian, with a large percentage of the population white and protestant, have more in common with Texas and Arkansas, and are firmly planted in the bible belt.  

This fact is very important in understanding Louisiana&#039;s politics. Any politician in Louisiana has to play to both sides if he wants to get much of anything done, it&#039;s a sad fact, but that is how it is.  To further complicate things the overly complex state constitution all but spells out that if there is a budget shortfall that money should be taken from education. While this is a terrible thing, the one advantage of this is that state funds will not likely be used to purchase any Creationism/ID materials for classes.

I&#039;m not saying this to defend this bill, or the governor, but to say that those of us that are opposed to the slow creep of ID into our school systems should not view this as a loss or defeat.  Instead we should see this as them coming more into the open.  They have made themselves a larger and easier target.  Most people are unaware of the way things have been in Louisiana and by doing this all they have really done is draw attention to themselves, but they have not succeeded in forcing any teachers who were not already in the ID camp to join them.  In a way this may be a strategic victory for the pro-science camp since the many good teachers in the state now have their hands slightly less bound and the pro-ID teachers will be easier to find.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before you get up in arms over this, you should probably know a bit more about the Louisiana politics and public school system.  First, it was difficult for many teachers to bring outside &#8220;materials&#8221; of any type to present to a class, even though that has relaxed more in recent years, this does open up several doors in that sense.  There is also a tremendous amount of bureaucracy to overcome in order to change even small things in a class (I know that some local school boards require teachers to write out and have approval for all lesson plans for the entire year by the beginning of August).  So in some sense that may limit the fallout</p>
<p>Second this will not make much of a difference in whether or not Creationism/ID will be taught in classrooms.  It already is being taught in the classrooms of many of the teachers who lean that way ideologically.  For example my brother was told by his teacher in fifth grade that the reason the dinosaurs went extinct was that Noah wouldn&#8217;t let them eat the other animals after they got off the ark, this was not some misunderstood joke or a nonsense answer, she actually believed this to be true.  The local schools many times will turn a blind eye to this sort of thing until some parent gets upset, which seems to happen very rarely.  </p>
<p>I myself was lucky enough to have had very excellent science teachers for most of my schooling, but in the middle school (7th-8th grade) I attended the principle said a prayer every Monday and Friday morning over the intercom.  This was not in the 40s or 50s this was in the early 90s.  This only stopped after a parent threatened to sue, at which point a &#8220;student organization&#8221; began giving the morning prayer, which was somehow alright as long as they didn&#8217;t say &#8220;Jesus&#8221;.</p>
<p>Now I love my home state very dearly but one thing that many people don&#8217;t realize is that in many ways it is two states.  The southern portion where most of the population is heavily french and spanish influenced and very multicultural, most of the technological infrastructure is located, and protestants (especially fundamentalist) are the minority.  And the northern portion which is primarily agrarian, with a large percentage of the population white and protestant, have more in common with Texas and Arkansas, and are firmly planted in the bible belt.  </p>
<p>This fact is very important in understanding Louisiana&#8217;s politics. Any politician in Louisiana has to play to both sides if he wants to get much of anything done, it&#8217;s a sad fact, but that is how it is.  To further complicate things the overly complex state constitution all but spells out that if there is a budget shortfall that money should be taken from education. While this is a terrible thing, the one advantage of this is that state funds will not likely be used to purchase any Creationism/ID materials for classes.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying this to defend this bill, or the governor, but to say that those of us that are opposed to the slow creep of ID into our school systems should not view this as a loss or defeat.  Instead we should see this as them coming more into the open.  They have made themselves a larger and easier target.  Most people are unaware of the way things have been in Louisiana and by doing this all they have really done is draw attention to themselves, but they have not succeeded in forcing any teachers who were not already in the ID camp to join them.  In a way this may be a strategic victory for the pro-science camp since the many good teachers in the state now have their hands slightly less bound and the pro-ID teachers will be easier to find.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8760</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8760</guid>
		<description>Parents don&#039;t have to be interested themselves, I dont think. I do think that it is important to enrich your child in whatever they have a liking for. If that&#039;s music, get them private lessons in their favorite intrument. Science questions, most rudimentary ones they come across in their everyday life anyways, can be answered online or through the public library. The way my father taught me things, by memorization, is a common way things are taught. &quot;Here&#039;s a fact, memorize it, we&#039;ll test you on it exactly later,&quot; type of approach. Although, it&#039;s definitely not the best way to learn. They might get mad at you, but asking them guided questions in return is a great way to get them thinking through a problem. There isn&#039;t a better feeling in the world than discovering how to solve a problem you&#039;ve been facing. Positive reinforcement, critical thinking, and independence all in one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parents don&#8217;t have to be interested themselves, I dont think. I do think that it is important to enrich your child in whatever they have a liking for. If that&#8217;s music, get them private lessons in their favorite intrument. Science questions, most rudimentary ones they come across in their everyday life anyways, can be answered online or through the public library. The way my father taught me things, by memorization, is a common way things are taught. &#8220;Here&#8217;s a fact, memorize it, we&#8217;ll test you on it exactly later,&#8221; type of approach. Although, it&#8217;s definitely not the best way to learn. They might get mad at you, but asking them guided questions in return is a great way to get them thinking through a problem. There isn&#8217;t a better feeling in the world than discovering how to solve a problem you&#8217;ve been facing. Positive reinforcement, critical thinking, and independence all in one.</p>
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		<title>By: Fifi</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8752</link>
		<dc:creator>Fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8752</guid>
		<description>medmonkey - Perhaps I&#039;m just generalizing my own experience growing up with science but scientific curiosity is almost innate in children who are intensely curious about the world and how things work (if it&#039;s not oppressed out of them!). As for the parents, maybe it would help educate them too but that presupposes a parent who is capable of saying &quot;I don&#039;t know, let&#039;s look it up and see if someone else knows&quot; and is curious about the world and loves learning themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>medmonkey &#8211; Perhaps I&#8217;m just generalizing my own experience growing up with science but scientific curiosity is almost innate in children who are intensely curious about the world and how things work (if it&#8217;s not oppressed out of them!). As for the parents, maybe it would help educate them too but that presupposes a parent who is capable of saying &#8220;I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s look it up and see if someone else knows&#8221; and is curious about the world and loves learning themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: medmonkey</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8750</link>
		<dc:creator>medmonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8750</guid>
		<description>Fifi - I couldn&#039;t stand Carey in How The Grinch Stole Christmas, so I also boycotted Horton Hears A Who.  I agree that kids are totally primed to enjoy science if presented in the right light.  The wife of one of my professors (a medical ethicist) is attempting to start up a Camp Quest in south Florida to run for a week over winter break, 2009.  I&#039;m definitely going to be a camp counselor when it happens.    

Also, I kind of like the idea of kids going home and teaching their parents about science.  Even if it&#039;s just helping their kids with homework, the process requires parents, who haven&#039;t thought about this sort of thing since high school, contemplate science!  What could be better!  And if they&#039;re actually learning something about the scientific process, rather than just mindless facts, maybe they&#039;ll be less inclined to buy into the political idea that ID has some place in schools&#039; curriculums.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fifi &#8211; I couldn&#8217;t stand Carey in How The Grinch Stole Christmas, so I also boycotted Horton Hears A Who.  I agree that kids are totally primed to enjoy science if presented in the right light.  The wife of one of my professors (a medical ethicist) is attempting to start up a Camp Quest in south Florida to run for a week over winter break, 2009.  I&#8217;m definitely going to be a camp counselor when it happens.    </p>
<p>Also, I kind of like the idea of kids going home and teaching their parents about science.  Even if it&#8217;s just helping their kids with homework, the process requires parents, who haven&#8217;t thought about this sort of thing since high school, contemplate science!  What could be better!  And if they&#8217;re actually learning something about the scientific process, rather than just mindless facts, maybe they&#8217;ll be less inclined to buy into the political idea that ID has some place in schools&#8217; curriculums.</p>
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		<title>By: Fifi</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8745</link>
		<dc:creator>Fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8745</guid>
		<description>medmonkey - That said, I&#039;m sure there&#039;d be all kinds of complaints from non-science literate parents about how their kids came home and freaked them out with existential questions about infinity! Dr Seuss&#039; Horton Hears A Who became one of my fave books due to my fascination with infinity and the worlds within worlds. (I refuse to see the movie because it would just make me sad to watch Jim Carey destroy yet another Seuss classic - no doubt going against Seuss&#039;s intentions yet again by making what sounds like it&#039;s more like Horton Hears A Woo. Bastard.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>medmonkey &#8211; That said, I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;d be all kinds of complaints from non-science literate parents about how their kids came home and freaked them out with existential questions about infinity! Dr Seuss&#8217; Horton Hears A Who became one of my fave books due to my fascination with infinity and the worlds within worlds. (I refuse to see the movie because it would just make me sad to watch Jim Carey destroy yet another Seuss classic &#8211; no doubt going against Seuss&#8217;s intentions yet again by making what sounds like it&#8217;s more like Horton Hears A Woo. Bastard.)</p>
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		<title>By: DevilsAdvocate</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/louisiana-we-have-a-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-8743</link>
		<dc:creator>DevilsAdvocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=460#comment-8743</guid>
		<description>Clifton: &quot;As everyone is well aware that ID is the Mini-Me to Creationism’s Dr Evil, would any school that actually allowed ID to be “taught” on it’s premises still not fall foul of the provisions re separation of church and state? Would such a school lay itself open to prosecution, despite this bill?&quot;

The switch from the label &#039;creationism&#039; to &#039;intelligent design&#039; was predicated on the need to make it less obviously a religious idea, which wasn&#039;t enjoying much success, and make it more sciency-sounding, which makes it easier to sell, because it&#039;s easier to obfuscate the fact it&#039;s merely creationism wearing a lab coat it has not earned. 

A court precedent has been established, in Kitzmiller v. Dover, decided against the creationist/ID case:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover_decision.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifton: &#8220;As everyone is well aware that ID is the Mini-Me to Creationism’s Dr Evil, would any school that actually allowed ID to be “taught” on it’s premises still not fall foul of the provisions re separation of church and state? Would such a school lay itself open to prosecution, despite this bill?&#8221;</p>
<p>The switch from the label &#8216;creationism&#8217; to &#8216;intelligent design&#8217; was predicated on the need to make it less obviously a religious idea, which wasn&#8217;t enjoying much success, and make it more sciency-sounding, which makes it easier to sell, because it&#8217;s easier to obfuscate the fact it&#8217;s merely creationism wearing a lab coat it has not earned. </p>
<p>A court precedent has been established, in Kitzmiller v. Dover, decided against the creationist/ID case:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover_decision.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover_decision.html</a></p>
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