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	<title>Comments on: Fighting CAM &#8211; In Australia</title>
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		<title>By: norrisL</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-39198</link>
		<dc:creator>norrisL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-39198</guid>
		<description>Almost embarrassing to be an Australian when so called universities are peddling such nonsense. But we are working on it over here. But then we have this twit in my own country and in my profession. pawstoheal.com.au/
unbelievable garbage from this person in the guise of veterinary medicine and surgery. She even allows her patients the right to die when THEY feel ready, rather than being compassionate and euthanasing them when euthanasia is obviously required on compassionate grounds. What&#039;s wrong with the Victorian Board of veterinary Surgeons that they allow this person to practice as a veterinarian?

Stuart</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Almost embarrassing to be an Australian when so called universities are peddling such nonsense. But we are working on it over here. But then we have this twit in my own country and in my profession. pawstoheal.com.au/<br />
unbelievable garbage from this person in the guise of veterinary medicine and surgery. She even allows her patients the right to die when THEY feel ready, rather than being compassionate and euthanasing them when euthanasia is obviously required on compassionate grounds. What&#8217;s wrong with the Victorian Board of veterinary Surgeons that they allow this person to practice as a veterinarian?</p>
<p>Stuart</p>
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		<title>By: micwat</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38891</link>
		<dc:creator>micwat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38891</guid>
		<description>Hi Steve, just want to point out a technical error. The link to Professor Graham&#039;s &quot;different piece as well&quot; in your post above is a second link to the same story as the first one.

I think it&#039;s a really interesting point that some of these so called ancient therapies and that old after all. Presumably there are some things that worked all along (even in Ancient Greece) and still work because they contained effective active ingredients. So we don&#039;t call that alternative medicine any more, just medicine. And presumably it can be refined and delivered better pharmacologically these days.  Can you give some examples of medicines whose origins were in ancient times - ie those that really have stood the test of time not because they are old but because they work?

Unfortunately, the study of naturopathy etc at Southern Cross Uni is a symptom of its academic laxity and Kow-towing to its local hippy fringe community (in my personal opinion). This is based on its location on the North Coast of NSW - also a hotbed of anti-vaccination sentiment on Australia&#039;s East coast. It is not a faculty of medicine since the university has no such faculty. Unfortunately its offering of CAM type &#039;university&#039; courses - where someone can get a university Masters degree in complimentary medicine is a symptom of market driven rather than science driven faculty offerings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Steve, just want to point out a technical error. The link to Professor Graham&#8217;s &#8220;different piece as well&#8221; in your post above is a second link to the same story as the first one.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a really interesting point that some of these so called ancient therapies and that old after all. Presumably there are some things that worked all along (even in Ancient Greece) and still work because they contained effective active ingredients. So we don&#8217;t call that alternative medicine any more, just medicine. And presumably it can be refined and delivered better pharmacologically these days.  Can you give some examples of medicines whose origins were in ancient times &#8211; ie those that really have stood the test of time not because they are old but because they work?</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the study of naturopathy etc at Southern Cross Uni is a symptom of its academic laxity and Kow-towing to its local hippy fringe community (in my personal opinion). This is based on its location on the North Coast of NSW &#8211; also a hotbed of anti-vaccination sentiment on Australia&#8217;s East coast. It is not a faculty of medicine since the university has no such faculty. Unfortunately its offering of CAM type &#8216;university&#8217; courses &#8211; where someone can get a university Masters degree in complimentary medicine is a symptom of market driven rather than science driven faculty offerings.</p>
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		<title>By: DrainBamaged</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38887</link>
		<dc:creator>DrainBamaged</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38887</guid>
		<description>&quot;shotinfo&quot; is a popular pseudonym of Meryl Dorey (of the Australian Vaccination Network), so it&#039;s most likely that the author of the &quot;shotinfo&quot; comment cited above is Meryl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;shotinfo&#8221; is a popular pseudonym of Meryl Dorey (of the Australian Vaccination Network), so it&#8217;s most likely that the author of the &#8220;shotinfo&#8221; comment cited above is Meryl.</p>
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		<title>By: thequiet1</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38886</link>
		<dc:creator>thequiet1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38886</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s very good to see a group of MD&#039;s here taking the initiative and going on the offensive. We don&#039;t need more &#039;shruggies.&#039;

John Dwyer also had an article published on The Conversation recently titled &quot;There’s no place for pseudo-scientific chiropractic in Australian universities&quot; (http://theconversation.edu.au/theres-no-place-for-pseudo-scientific-chiropractic-in-australian-universities-4576).

I like the cut of his jib.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s very good to see a group of MD&#8217;s here taking the initiative and going on the offensive. We don&#8217;t need more &#8216;shruggies.&#8217;</p>
<p>John Dwyer also had an article published on The Conversation recently titled &#8220;There’s no place for pseudo-scientific chiropractic in Australian universities&#8221; (<a href="http://theconversation.edu.au/theres-no-place-for-pseudo-scientific-chiropractic-in-australian-universities-4576" rel="nofollow">http://theconversation.edu.au/theres-no-place-for-pseudo-scientific-chiropractic-in-australian-universities-4576</a>).</p>
<p>I like the cut of his jib.</p>
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		<title>By: ccbowers</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38882</link>
		<dc:creator>ccbowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38882</guid>
		<description>But &quot;The Argument from Popularity&quot; is used by people in cultures all over the world, and  the &quot;argument from antiquity&quot; has been used for thousands of years!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But &#8220;The Argument from Popularity&#8221; is used by people in cultures all over the world, and  the &#8220;argument from antiquity&#8221; has been used for thousands of years!</p>
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		<title>By: Guy Chapman</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38881</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Chapman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38881</guid>
		<description>The problem lies in the term CAM itself. It combines two entirely distinct categories: complementary therapies and alternatives-to-medicine.

Complementary therapies is a broad category including all sorts of things, some of which have a decent evidence base (good diet, massage for muscle pain and so on).

Alternatives-to-medicine, however, is pretty much universally fraudulent - the correct technical term for an &quot;alternative&quot; medicine that can be shown to work is, of course, medicine, and science shows no obvious reluctance to adopt treatments isolated tree bark, to name one well known example.

The term &quot;complementary and alternative medicine&quot; as used to justify fraudulent alternative-to-medicine practices is the medical equivalent of claiming that flying carpets are a viable alternative to cars because they are part of the category of &quot;alternative transport&quot; which includes bicycles and rowing boats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem lies in the term CAM itself. It combines two entirely distinct categories: complementary therapies and alternatives-to-medicine.</p>
<p>Complementary therapies is a broad category including all sorts of things, some of which have a decent evidence base (good diet, massage for muscle pain and so on).</p>
<p>Alternatives-to-medicine, however, is pretty much universally fraudulent &#8211; the correct technical term for an &#8220;alternative&#8221; medicine that can be shown to work is, of course, medicine, and science shows no obvious reluctance to adopt treatments isolated tree bark, to name one well known example.</p>
<p>The term &#8220;complementary and alternative medicine&#8221; as used to justify fraudulent alternative-to-medicine practices is the medical equivalent of claiming that flying carpets are a viable alternative to cars because they are part of the category of &#8220;alternative transport&#8221; which includes bicycles and rowing boats.</p>
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		<title>By: desparoz</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38880</link>
		<dc:creator>desparoz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 21:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38880</guid>
		<description>As an Australian, skeptic and martial artist, I was intrigued by the reference to &quot;martial arts&quot; in their list. 

I thought (perhaps hoped) that you were making a generalisation on arts like T&#039;ai Chi, which may once have been martial, but are now for the most part simply therapeutic in nature, and often based on the concept of Chi... Surely a paper like this couldn&#039;t make over-generalisations and get away with it?

Unfortunately the article is worse than simply saying martial arts, because it sandwiches martial arts in a single item: &quot;Chi Gong, martial arts and Tai Chi&quot;. Not only is the generic term sandwiched, the use of capitals on tai chi and chi gong draws attention away from the generic.

With some notable exceptions, the vast majority of Tai Chi practitioners are no longer practicing a martial art as such. To an even greater extent, most Chi Gong practice is now &quot;therapy&quot;, &quot;movement exercise&quot; or sometimes simply mystical in nature.

This classification would be like saying something like &quot;drinking is uneqivocally bad for you, because almost 100% of autopsy patients had drunk Beer, liquid or Whisky in the past 24 hours&quot;. There may be a relationship between alcohol and liquids, but the over-generalisation doesn&#039;t prove the point. (BTW: I am not condoning excessive alcohol consumption, it was just the best analogy I could come up with first thing in the morning).

As a martial artist of many years, I have seen a lot of BS in the arts. I am one of an increasingly large group of practitioners who looks for scientific explanation of why things happen the way they do. I am keenly interested, for example, in the body&#039;s vulnerable points. I am uninterested in explanations of those vulnerabilities that involve pseudo-science (chi, meridians, etc). I am intrigued by the physiologically valid reasons. 

For example, if someone is struck in an appropriate manner on the neck there is a good chance of them becoming unconscious. I don&#039;t care that a point called &quot;Stomach 9&quot; was struck, because it is irrelevant (and fictional). The underlying structures of the vagus nerve, carotid artery, carotid sinus, etc, and the autonomous responses by the body provide a scientific explanation for the effect. This knowledge allows us to structure training for safety (ie. don&#039;t strike that point), and also to structure practice for (justified) self-defence, accordingly.

As a skeptic, I&#039;ve long liked the phrase &quot;medicine that is known to work is called medicine, everything else is alternative medicine&quot;. In the martial arts, many have started adding the name &quot;functional&quot; or &quot;reality based&quot; to the term martial arts. It seems wrong that the &quot;realists&quot; have had to redefine our practice to differentiate from the &quot;woo&quot; arts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an Australian, skeptic and martial artist, I was intrigued by the reference to &#8220;martial arts&#8221; in their list. </p>
<p>I thought (perhaps hoped) that you were making a generalisation on arts like T&#8217;ai Chi, which may once have been martial, but are now for the most part simply therapeutic in nature, and often based on the concept of Chi&#8230; Surely a paper like this couldn&#8217;t make over-generalisations and get away with it?</p>
<p>Unfortunately the article is worse than simply saying martial arts, because it sandwiches martial arts in a single item: &#8220;Chi Gong, martial arts and Tai Chi&#8221;. Not only is the generic term sandwiched, the use of capitals on tai chi and chi gong draws attention away from the generic.</p>
<p>With some notable exceptions, the vast majority of Tai Chi practitioners are no longer practicing a martial art as such. To an even greater extent, most Chi Gong practice is now &#8220;therapy&#8221;, &#8220;movement exercise&#8221; or sometimes simply mystical in nature.</p>
<p>This classification would be like saying something like &#8220;drinking is uneqivocally bad for you, because almost 100% of autopsy patients had drunk Beer, liquid or Whisky in the past 24 hours&#8221;. There may be a relationship between alcohol and liquids, but the over-generalisation doesn&#8217;t prove the point. (BTW: I am not condoning excessive alcohol consumption, it was just the best analogy I could come up with first thing in the morning).</p>
<p>As a martial artist of many years, I have seen a lot of BS in the arts. I am one of an increasingly large group of practitioners who looks for scientific explanation of why things happen the way they do. I am keenly interested, for example, in the body&#8217;s vulnerable points. I am uninterested in explanations of those vulnerabilities that involve pseudo-science (chi, meridians, etc). I am intrigued by the physiologically valid reasons. </p>
<p>For example, if someone is struck in an appropriate manner on the neck there is a good chance of them becoming unconscious. I don&#8217;t care that a point called &#8220;Stomach 9&#8243; was struck, because it is irrelevant (and fictional). The underlying structures of the vagus nerve, carotid artery, carotid sinus, etc, and the autonomous responses by the body provide a scientific explanation for the effect. This knowledge allows us to structure training for safety (ie. don&#8217;t strike that point), and also to structure practice for (justified) self-defence, accordingly.</p>
<p>As a skeptic, I&#8217;ve long liked the phrase &#8220;medicine that is known to work is called medicine, everything else is alternative medicine&#8221;. In the martial arts, many have started adding the name &#8220;functional&#8221; or &#8220;reality based&#8221; to the term martial arts. It seems wrong that the &#8220;realists&#8221; have had to redefine our practice to differentiate from the &#8220;woo&#8221; arts.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/fighting-cam-in-australia/comment-page-1/#comment-38877</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=3950#comment-38877</guid>
		<description>Steven,
Thank you for the research and education. I am an ER doc in Alberta, Canada and find myself, almost on every shift, dealing with magical thinking and pseudoscience. I appreciate your blogs and essays on here to keep me up-to-date and informed. I quite often use the information and ideas you provide and review to try to educate patients and co-workers when such topics come up. 
This blog is another example of one that I am sure will come in handy.
Thanks again,
Wes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven,<br />
Thank you for the research and education. I am an ER doc in Alberta, Canada and find myself, almost on every shift, dealing with magical thinking and pseudoscience. I appreciate your blogs and essays on here to keep me up-to-date and informed. I quite often use the information and ideas you provide and review to try to educate patients and co-workers when such topics come up.<br />
This blog is another example of one that I am sure will come in handy.<br />
Thanks again,<br />
Wes</p>
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