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	<title>Comments on: Evolving Mice</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14259</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=854#comment-14259</guid>
		<description>Musings on the subject of relevance:

The mice &quot;experience&quot; that they are in an environment of a different color.  Coincidentally, or so it seems, they evolve to take on that same color.  And it also seems that epigenetic mechanisms may turn out to be one way in which the effects of such experience on an organism can be heritable.  
So we have here a physiological change that seems to have been dictated by experience and with an eery specificity to the organism&#039;s observations.  Of course we don&#039;t know if the selection process was epigenetic. But we know, or should know, there is a selection process here that has little to do with the type of choices involved, conscious or otherwise, in adapting to new or different food sources.  
Assuming we know that choices are involved at all, or know a particular example of hypothetical behavioral changes would have relevance to physiological changes because we have a sufficient understanding of the nature of biological choice.
But then where an ultimate denial that choice was involved in the process at all, even though the organism&#039;s experience clearly was, would seem to belie the notion of such an understanding.
Leaving one free to see relevance in the web of causality without any purpose to the singling out of a particular section or strand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Musings on the subject of relevance:</p>
<p>The mice &#8220;experience&#8221; that they are in an environment of a different color.  Coincidentally, or so it seems, they evolve to take on that same color.  And it also seems that epigenetic mechanisms may turn out to be one way in which the effects of such experience on an organism can be heritable.<br />
So we have here a physiological change that seems to have been dictated by experience and with an eery specificity to the organism&#8217;s observations.  Of course we don&#8217;t know if the selection process was epigenetic. But we know, or should know, there is a selection process here that has little to do with the type of choices involved, conscious or otherwise, in adapting to new or different food sources.<br />
Assuming we know that choices are involved at all, or know a particular example of hypothetical behavioral changes would have relevance to physiological changes because we have a sufficient understanding of the nature of biological choice.<br />
But then where an ultimate denial that choice was involved in the process at all, even though the organism&#8217;s experience clearly was, would seem to belie the notion of such an understanding.<br />
Leaving one free to see relevance in the web of causality without any purpose to the singling out of a particular section or strand.</p>
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		<title>By: pope111</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14248</link>
		<dc:creator>pope111</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You misunderstand, i do not think that the mouse diet did influnce their colour in this case (although it is theoretically possible as shown by the colour changes caused by epigenetic changes seen in mice fed a certain diet, c.f. the paper i linked to previously). 

I think it is exceeding unlikely in fact, the chances that a mouse will just happen to have find itself in an environment in which its new diet will just happen to have the effect of changing its colour to the colour which will be advantageous in that particular environment is exceeding small. If you recall, the only reason i started out on that track was to give you a little support in your contention that what an organimsm does (chooses) in its life can influence its (or at least its offsprings) phenotype without the necessity of a random mutation.  

If you can not understand that , read the article.  

I think its much more likely that a traditional random mutation/ natural selection type explination is correct in this case (as i have already stated).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You misunderstand, i do not think that the mouse diet did influnce their colour in this case (although it is theoretically possible as shown by the colour changes caused by epigenetic changes seen in mice fed a certain diet, c.f. the paper i linked to previously). </p>
<p>I think it is exceeding unlikely in fact, the chances that a mouse will just happen to have find itself in an environment in which its new diet will just happen to have the effect of changing its colour to the colour which will be advantageous in that particular environment is exceeding small. If you recall, the only reason i started out on that track was to give you a little support in your contention that what an organimsm does (chooses) in its life can influence its (or at least its offsprings) phenotype without the necessity of a random mutation.  </p>
<p>If you can not understand that , read the article.  </p>
<p>I think its much more likely that a traditional random mutation/ natural selection type explination is correct in this case (as i have already stated).</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14246</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 07:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A (possible) new source of food in the sand dunes coincides with the mice becoming the same color as the dunes, and that becomes your scientific assessment of either the how or the why?  Where&#039;s the nexus, the proximate cause, the proposed mechanism? How do you ignore the inconsistencies with other examples reported of this rather ubiquitous natural camouflage phenomena?  How would you settle on such improbable speculation as the best explanation?  You scoffed at my suggestion of reading, not a book, but an in depth article on causation. You say you&#039;re a practicing scientist and that you have students in some such capacity?  And you think causation is just some sort of philosophical side issue?  It&#039;s as central to the scientific method and discovery as any concept could be.

That&#039;s it.  My last comment on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A (possible) new source of food in the sand dunes coincides with the mice becoming the same color as the dunes, and that becomes your scientific assessment of either the how or the why?  Where&#8217;s the nexus, the proximate cause, the proposed mechanism? How do you ignore the inconsistencies with other examples reported of this rather ubiquitous natural camouflage phenomena?  How would you settle on such improbable speculation as the best explanation?  You scoffed at my suggestion of reading, not a book, but an in depth article on causation. You say you&#8217;re a practicing scientist and that you have students in some such capacity?  And you think causation is just some sort of philosophical side issue?  It&#8217;s as central to the scientific method and discovery as any concept could be.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s it.  My last comment on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: pope111</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14244</link>
		<dc:creator>pope111</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=854#comment-14244</guid>
		<description>....different environment=different diet, no co-incidence, they dont have a choice in the matter they have to eat whatever happens to be around, thats the point...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;.different environment=different diet, no co-incidence, they dont have a choice in the matter they have to eat whatever happens to be around, thats the point&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14235</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 00:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Maybe the way mice change color to match the environment is to coincidentally adopt a different diet?  (Sorry, couldn&#039;t resist the bait.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the way mice change color to match the environment is to coincidentally adopt a different diet?  (Sorry, couldn&#8217;t resist the bait.)</p>
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		<title>By: pope111</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14234</link>
		<dc:creator>pope111</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>..no no, i wouldn&#039;t want you to hold back on your criticism, please do offer you critique and counter points, thats the idea of this kind of thread is it not? 

If i have badly erred in my simplified explinations of epigenetics and adaptive mutations please do tell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>..no no, i wouldn&#8217;t want you to hold back on your criticism, please do offer you critique and counter points, thats the idea of this kind of thread is it not? </p>
<p>If i have badly erred in my simplified explinations of epigenetics and adaptive mutations please do tell.</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14230</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 16:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=854#comment-14230</guid>
		<description>Your alleged students didn&#039;t lie about being students, did they?  If those I&#039;m referring to here did in fact have sound and logical arguments, the lying wouldn&#039;t have been so obvious.  In your case, some of the explanations you initially proposed were laughable.  I didn&#039;t attack any of them on that basis, as at least you were trying to understand, or so it seemed.  Turns out you can&#039;t read all that well, and I may have mistaken that disability for deliberateness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your alleged students didn&#8217;t lie about being students, did they?  If those I&#8217;m referring to here did in fact have sound and logical arguments, the lying wouldn&#8217;t have been so obvious.  In your case, some of the explanations you initially proposed were laughable.  I didn&#8217;t attack any of them on that basis, as at least you were trying to understand, or so it seemed.  Turns out you can&#8217;t read all that well, and I may have mistaken that disability for deliberateness.</p>
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		<title>By: pope111</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14226</link>
		<dc:creator>pope111</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 11:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=854#comment-14226</guid>
		<description>It shouldn&#039;t matter whether someone is a student or a practicing scientist, if their arguments are sound and logic is good then whats the difference. 

I am a practicing scientist but have had my students point out my own mistakes before. 

I would guess that no one (including you Artful) is really qualified to talk definatively about these issues as none of us is involved in research in this precise area.

An attitude of intellectualy superiority will thus not get you very far, particularly with a crowd such as this, who are also likely to have more than a passing familiarity with science and are likely to be on the higher side of the IQ scale. Best of luck finding a more hospitable venue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It shouldn&#8217;t matter whether someone is a student or a practicing scientist, if their arguments are sound and logic is good then whats the difference. </p>
<p>I am a practicing scientist but have had my students point out my own mistakes before. </p>
<p>I would guess that no one (including you Artful) is really qualified to talk definatively about these issues as none of us is involved in research in this precise area.</p>
<p>An attitude of intellectualy superiority will thus not get you very far, particularly with a crowd such as this, who are also likely to have more than a passing familiarity with science and are likely to be on the higher side of the IQ scale. Best of luck finding a more hospitable venue.</p>
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		<title>By: artfulD</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14225</link>
		<dc:creator>artfulD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 09:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=854#comment-14225</guid>
		<description>Cyborg, I wasn&#039;t including you as a disciple.  As to these others, and to ascribing motives, I&#039;ve run across most of these guys before, and I decided a change in tactics would be an interesting experiment.  And so it has been.  Too many of them are students or worse pretending to be practicing science - and if one argues from such a deceptive position, this goes to their motives, and they should expect to be called on it.  A person who knows his subject will come at you from a different direction than one who merely pretends such knowledge.  Dr. Novella tolerates this, as it&#039;s his blog, and he needs to tolerate the dummies and frauds if he&#039;s to make information available to the rest.  I don&#039;t have to, and as you can see, what I&#039;ve already decided to do is stop dealing with these bozos, and letting them know why, and exposing them as frauds in the bargain - something I&#039;m sure they never expected.  As a consequence, this will prevent me from participating in any substantive discussion here in future, but I knew that going in, and there are more hospitable venues out there in any case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cyborg, I wasn&#8217;t including you as a disciple.  As to these others, and to ascribing motives, I&#8217;ve run across most of these guys before, and I decided a change in tactics would be an interesting experiment.  And so it has been.  Too many of them are students or worse pretending to be practicing science &#8211; and if one argues from such a deceptive position, this goes to their motives, and they should expect to be called on it.  A person who knows his subject will come at you from a different direction than one who merely pretends such knowledge.  Dr. Novella tolerates this, as it&#8217;s his blog, and he needs to tolerate the dummies and frauds if he&#8217;s to make information available to the rest.  I don&#8217;t have to, and as you can see, what I&#8217;ve already decided to do is stop dealing with these bozos, and letting them know why, and exposing them as frauds in the bargain &#8211; something I&#8217;m sure they never expected.  As a consequence, this will prevent me from participating in any substantive discussion here in future, but I knew that going in, and there are more hospitable venues out there in any case.</p>
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		<title>By: CertifiedCyborg</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/evolving-mice/comment-page-2/#comment-14224</link>
		<dc:creator>CertifiedCyborg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 06:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Second paragraph should read &quot;when people misinterpret his posts, nor do I enjoy reading the ad-hominen&#039;s he liberally peppers them with.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second paragraph should read &#8220;when people misinterpret his posts, nor do I enjoy reading the ad-hominen&#8217;s he liberally peppers them with.&#8221;</p>
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