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	<title>Comments on: Digital Doctors</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: Science-Based Medicine &#187; Checklists and Culture in Medicine</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17669</link>
		<dc:creator>Science-Based Medicine &#187; Checklists and Culture in Medicine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17669</guid>
		<description>[...] I recently discussed elsewhere that there will likely be an increasing role of expert systems in the practice of medicine. This  include things like systems for analyzing radiographic studies and highlighting potential pathology, checking for drug-drug interactions when new prescriptions are written, suggesting possible diagnoses to be considered, and, yes, running through checklists or algorithms of proper evidence-based management. This may be as simple as reminding a physician to consider prescribing cardiovascular prophylaxis to their 60 year old patient with hypertension (something which does not happen as often as it should). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I recently discussed elsewhere that there will likely be an increasing role of expert systems in the practice of medicine. This  include things like systems for analyzing radiographic studies and highlighting potential pathology, checking for drug-drug interactions when new prescriptions are written, suggesting possible diagnoses to be considered, and, yes, running through checklists or algorithms of proper evidence-based management. This may be as simple as reminding a physician to consider prescribing cardiovascular prophylaxis to their 60 year old patient with hypertension (something which does not happen as often as it should). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Goldmakher</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17437</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Goldmakher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17437</guid>
		<description>As a radiologist, I have worked with automated detection/recognition systems, and at least right now they are dismal. The area that they&#039;ve had the most application so far is mammography, where there are several systems which do a &quot;second look&quot;, trying to detect signs of cancer that you might have missed. The problem is that there are many visual features that malignancies and &quot;fake-outs&quot; have in common, and distinguishing the real from the artifactual depends on factors like comparing multiple views, current studies with old studies, and so on.

In general, visual recognition tasks are hard for automated systems, though they are getting better. We can make a computer that will beat any human being in chess, but a human is still much better at walking into a room and finding the chessboard.

Doing simple measurements is fine for automated systems, and has its place. Making actual diagnoses, though? Humans may be error-prone and conceited, but if my mother, sister, or wife gets her mammogram, I want it read by a radiologist rather than any piece of software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a radiologist, I have worked with automated detection/recognition systems, and at least right now they are dismal. The area that they&#8217;ve had the most application so far is mammography, where there are several systems which do a &#8220;second look&#8221;, trying to detect signs of cancer that you might have missed. The problem is that there are many visual features that malignancies and &#8220;fake-outs&#8221; have in common, and distinguishing the real from the artifactual depends on factors like comparing multiple views, current studies with old studies, and so on.</p>
<p>In general, visual recognition tasks are hard for automated systems, though they are getting better. We can make a computer that will beat any human being in chess, but a human is still much better at walking into a room and finding the chessboard.</p>
<p>Doing simple measurements is fine for automated systems, and has its place. Making actual diagnoses, though? Humans may be error-prone and conceited, but if my mother, sister, or wife gets her mammogram, I want it read by a radiologist rather than any piece of software.</p>
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		<title>By: Elwood</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17424</link>
		<dc:creator>Elwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17424</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;One of the only solutions that I can see moving forward for EMRs is to have a standard set of requirements such that all of the individual software programs communicate with each other&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is still an issue in the area of digital medical images. 

The DICOM standard of transmitting and archiving medical images is something that all vendors use - but the DICOM standard does not include all possible pieces of DICOM information. So 2 vendors required to connect their products (e.g. a ultrasound machine from one vendor to an archive server of another) can both be &#039;DICOM compliant&#039; but still have errors and failures in data transfer if one vendor is using different DICOM information to (for example) sort and filter images.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>One of the only solutions that I can see moving forward for EMRs is to have a standard set of requirements such that all of the individual software programs communicate with each other</p></blockquote>
<p>This is still an issue in the area of digital medical images. </p>
<p>The DICOM standard of transmitting and archiving medical images is something that all vendors use &#8211; but the DICOM standard does not include all possible pieces of DICOM information. So 2 vendors required to connect their products (e.g. a ultrasound machine from one vendor to an archive server of another) can both be &#8216;DICOM compliant&#8217; but still have errors and failures in data transfer if one vendor is using different DICOM information to (for example) sort and filter images.</p>
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		<title>By: Matlatzinca</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17421</link>
		<dc:creator>Matlatzinca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17421</guid>
		<description>Interesting discussion Steve, but I think you miss the mark on why EMRs are hard to implement.  There are actually good instances of EMRs that take into account workflow requirements and clinical applications (both patient-care and research).  However most organizations have legacy systems that can&#039;t be ditched en-masse for new (often very expensive) cross-compatible systems, and you can forget about communication between institutions, even if they use the same EMR vendor.

One of the only solutions that I can see moving forward for EMRs is to have a standard set of requirements such that all of the individual software programs communicate with each other.  I very much doubt that the insurance companies will be able to get their act together enough to create such a standard, which means that it may have to come from the US Government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion Steve, but I think you miss the mark on why EMRs are hard to implement.  There are actually good instances of EMRs that take into account workflow requirements and clinical applications (both patient-care and research).  However most organizations have legacy systems that can&#8217;t be ditched en-masse for new (often very expensive) cross-compatible systems, and you can forget about communication between institutions, even if they use the same EMR vendor.</p>
<p>One of the only solutions that I can see moving forward for EMRs is to have a standard set of requirements such that all of the individual software programs communicate with each other.  I very much doubt that the insurance companies will be able to get their act together enough to create such a standard, which means that it may have to come from the US Government.</p>
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		<title>By: SimonW</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17398</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 18:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17398</guid>
		<description>Human&#039;s have too much conceit, and are too error prone, to be trusted with the interpretation of challenging medical data. 

Give me an objectively trained statistical tested computer system every time.

Almost all areas of skill I&#039;ve looked at, where a computer can make a useful contribution it usually rapidly exceeds practitioners in the field. Chess is a good example. Whilst Kasparov might have been winning 32-0 in 1985 against computers, even then &gt;90% of humans who play chess would probably lose to a computer. These days all but a handful of humans would be crushed.

Quite often these tasks are done by humans long after computers can do them much more effectively, because humans are good at adapting the world to keep them gainfully employed, even when this isn&#039;t in the interests of their clients/customers/employers/patients.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Human&#8217;s have too much conceit, and are too error prone, to be trusted with the interpretation of challenging medical data. </p>
<p>Give me an objectively trained statistical tested computer system every time.</p>
<p>Almost all areas of skill I&#8217;ve looked at, where a computer can make a useful contribution it usually rapidly exceeds practitioners in the field. Chess is a good example. Whilst Kasparov might have been winning 32-0 in 1985 against computers, even then &gt;90% of humans who play chess would probably lose to a computer. These days all but a handful of humans would be crushed.</p>
<p>Quite often these tasks are done by humans long after computers can do them much more effectively, because humans are good at adapting the world to keep them gainfully employed, even when this isn&#8217;t in the interests of their clients/customers/employers/patients.</p>
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		<title>By: zoe237</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17389</link>
		<dc:creator>zoe237</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17389</guid>
		<description>I was thinking of the chess match too- what&#039;s the Harry Potter quote? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can&#039;t see it&#039;s brain? Okay, so that was Voldemort&#039;s diary, but still.

Seriously, I was disappointed (in retrospective) for the $2000 MRI for my own meniscus/ACL tear because I&#039;ve read since that good orthopedists are just as good as the MRIs at diagnosis. My orthopedic doctor called it right himself before any MRI. And he&#039;s cheaper too.

I&#039;ve also read that computers can make drug/ diagnostic mistakes as well, and that this is a big source of medical errors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking of the chess match too- what&#8217;s the Harry Potter quote? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can&#8217;t see it&#8217;s brain? Okay, so that was Voldemort&#8217;s diary, but still.</p>
<p>Seriously, I was disappointed (in retrospective) for the $2000 MRI for my own meniscus/ACL tear because I&#8217;ve read since that good orthopedists are just as good as the MRIs at diagnosis. My orthopedic doctor called it right himself before any MRI. And he&#8217;s cheaper too.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also read that computers can make drug/ diagnostic mistakes as well, and that this is a big source of medical errors.</p>
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		<title>By: cobaltnine</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17388</link>
		<dc:creator>cobaltnine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 01:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17388</guid>
		<description>Right now, I&#039;d guess that some of the pharmacological uses of computers in medicine are among the lower-hanging fruit, even before image analysis.  Perhaps due to the more limited focus that the pharmacy systems have, they are working more clearly - instead of trying to do everything at once.   They also have the advantage - most patients only go to one pharmacy, but many will go to several specialists, and communication between them can be tricky.  

Given the updated med list (and I see plenty that aren&#039;t), and things such as height, weight, and, say, recent blood-sugars, the pharmacy portion of medicine could definitely take more advantage of the power of computers to synthesize data according to predefined rules and present suggestions for providers to alter medication as needed.   Even now, although very irregularly, sometimes in outpatient I&#039;ll see a faxed notice, usually from the insurance-preferred mail-order pharmacies, suggesting a particular class of drug as an alternative, due to other medications which the patient is on.  I&#039;m not entirely sure about their motives, but if that systematic analysis could be harnessed in a neutral/medical setting, that would be nice.

I work in an outpatient setting and cringe whenever I hear that the pharmacy caught a medication allergy/cross-reaction.  At least someone caught it.  We should have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right now, I&#8217;d guess that some of the pharmacological uses of computers in medicine are among the lower-hanging fruit, even before image analysis.  Perhaps due to the more limited focus that the pharmacy systems have, they are working more clearly &#8211; instead of trying to do everything at once.   They also have the advantage &#8211; most patients only go to one pharmacy, but many will go to several specialists, and communication between them can be tricky.  </p>
<p>Given the updated med list (and I see plenty that aren&#8217;t), and things such as height, weight, and, say, recent blood-sugars, the pharmacy portion of medicine could definitely take more advantage of the power of computers to synthesize data according to predefined rules and present suggestions for providers to alter medication as needed.   Even now, although very irregularly, sometimes in outpatient I&#8217;ll see a faxed notice, usually from the insurance-preferred mail-order pharmacies, suggesting a particular class of drug as an alternative, due to other medications which the patient is on.  I&#8217;m not entirely sure about their motives, but if that systematic analysis could be harnessed in a neutral/medical setting, that would be nice.</p>
<p>I work in an outpatient setting and cringe whenever I hear that the pharmacy caught a medication allergy/cross-reaction.  At least someone caught it.  We should have.</p>
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		<title>By: Draal</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17386</link>
		<dc:creator>Draal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17386</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the more integrated computers are in medicine, the poorer the quality of physician. Sort of like Wilde’s theory of Risk Homeostasis. If a doctor relies on computer assistance too much, than possibly the less effective the doctor becomes, especially if the computers are suddenly taken away. Take calculators for example: I first learned basic algebra by hand, became fairly adept at it, but when I was allowed to used a calculator, my ability to quickly do pen and paper calculations decreased dramatically. Another example I encountered a lot was when I was a Teaching Assistant of undergraduates who used computer programs to solve their math problems. As long as the computer spit out an answer, they assumed the correct answer was reached. Repeatedly, I even graded homework that was 20 pages of computer error messages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the more integrated computers are in medicine, the poorer the quality of physician. Sort of like Wilde’s theory of Risk Homeostasis. If a doctor relies on computer assistance too much, than possibly the less effective the doctor becomes, especially if the computers are suddenly taken away. Take calculators for example: I first learned basic algebra by hand, became fairly adept at it, but when I was allowed to used a calculator, my ability to quickly do pen and paper calculations decreased dramatically. Another example I encountered a lot was when I was a Teaching Assistant of undergraduates who used computer programs to solve their math problems. As long as the computer spit out an answer, they assumed the correct answer was reached. Repeatedly, I even graded homework that was 20 pages of computer error messages.</p>
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		<title>By: BubbaRich</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17385</link>
		<dc:creator>BubbaRich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17385</guid>
		<description>I went to a doc-in-the-box over Xmas holidays, when my doc was gone, with a fairly severe sinus/throat ailment.  She seemed to type my symptoms and other answers to her questions into a diagnostic program, which suggested other questions.  She prescribed a fairly strong coupla medicines.  They didn&#039;t fix the problem, though my doctor didn&#039;t criticize her prescription at all, I just had a different bug or a resistant strain.  I don&#039;t feel that comfortable with a doc relying on that program for common ailments, although I&#039;m happier if it also tries to exclude more serious possibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to a doc-in-the-box over Xmas holidays, when my doc was gone, with a fairly severe sinus/throat ailment.  She seemed to type my symptoms and other answers to her questions into a diagnostic program, which suggested other questions.  She prescribed a fairly strong coupla medicines.  They didn&#8217;t fix the problem, though my doctor didn&#8217;t criticize her prescription at all, I just had a different bug or a resistant strain.  I don&#8217;t feel that comfortable with a doc relying on that program for common ailments, although I&#8217;m happier if it also tries to exclude more serious possibilities.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/digital-doctors/comment-page-1/#comment-17384</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1521#comment-17384</guid>
		<description>I would think help reading x-rays could be a good use for computers-
I know the doctors in the emergency room where I worked would have loved it if they could have a machine that asked-
&quot;Is this a problem?&quot; (indicating some area of the x-ray)  ((Especially at the end of a long shift...))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would think help reading x-rays could be a good use for computers-<br />
I know the doctors in the emergency room where I worked would have loved it if they could have a machine that asked-<br />
&#8220;Is this a problem?&#8221; (indicating some area of the x-ray)  ((Especially at the end of a long shift&#8230;))</p>
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