Mar 26 2013

Debating Homeopathy Part II

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19 responses so far

19 Responses to “Debating Homeopathy Part II”

  1. DavidCTon 26 Mar 2013 at 9:21 am

    How did this most reasonable set of arguments play to the house of true believers? Keeping the faith in the face of evidence seems to be the very human response. Sometimes you do start sowing he seeds of doubt. Thank you for making the effort.

    I am personally still waiting for some evidence before ordering my homeopathic starter kit from Dr. OZ. That makes me closed minded in the world of woo.

    A posting of the written exchange should be an interesting study in logical fallacies.

  2. champenoiseon 26 Mar 2013 at 9:37 am

    Kind of painful though, that after society has spent trillions of dollars in research over many decades and millions of people graduate from University (of Connecticut), this needs to be debated. Science is for science people and the rest is into magic.

  3. Heptronon 26 Mar 2013 at 12:20 pm

    So when it was all said and done, did you get laughed at again or did the crowd give you any sort of positive response (applause that wasn’t forced)?
    Also, did anyone come up to you after the show and ask you questions or seem like they had been ‘converted’?

  4. Lswanon 26 Mar 2013 at 5:35 pm

    If I understand Homeopathy, then sperm diluted in water should be the perfect birth control. I would ask the true believers to test that for about 12 months and bring in their results…lol

  5. HarryBlackon 26 Mar 2013 at 7:33 pm

    Back when I was a believer in Homeopathy I was totally unaware of any controversy. It just wasnt mentioned. In fact I was told many doctors were using it.
    Although the proposed mechanism seemed strange (And yes, now I can see how utterly ludicrous it is) I had faith in people close to me who said it worked and when I read about it I figured firstly – ‘Well if it absolutely didnt work then they wouldnt be allowed sell it right?’
    And secondly – ‘ No one could be brazen and dishonest enough to sell something at this level which they KNOW cant work right?’
    So I tried it for a small non specific problem I was having and hey presto the problem went away!
    I was totally sold. And I have a good friend who had the same problem, received the same treatment and also never suffered the problem again.
    She is more scientifically literate than I was but cant see past the anecdote.
    The sad thing is that the friend who introduced me to it is now, with the help of his true believer parents, taking a homeopathic alternative to the medication he should be on for his schizophrenia. Needless to say its not going well and Im utterly disgusted at the people who would take what cant be more than 100 euros to destroy the life of a promising young man.
    Although I never had a those thoughts about homeopathy specifically there were other pseudo scientific ideas that I couldnt believe were not accepted by science and mainstream medicine. I had ‘seen’ them work. My friends were peddlers and ‘saw’ them work everyday.
    In fact the only reason I was able to break away was that I have always been a little intellectually insecure and started learning about critical thinking to try and do something about that. My lack of investment in my own perceptions meant I was ready to accept that I may have interpreted something the wrong way and made an error of judgement. Because many people feel inadequate in one way or another, the only thing some of us feel pretty confident about is our memories and interpretation of events. I have found that questioning this is seen as questioning their very selves which most arent willing to do.
    I think until every adult leaves school with a knowledge of what studies are, why we do them, what good standards are and how to check them this issue will go on with the fence sitters leaning toward the wishful side of these debates and the true believers shaking their heads because they dont actually know the definition of good evidence.

    Steve, what have you generally found to be the after effects of such debates? do you often get anyone waking up and getting in touch to tell you so? My assumption would be that if someone is invested enough to attend a debate they have looked at the evidence and ignored it once already.

  6. Davdoodleson 26 Mar 2013 at 10:50 pm

    Again, this makes me wonder: EVEN the most sympathetic reading of Jacobs, itself, the best evidence Homeopaths can provide, says that homeopathy (ie water) might possibly shorten the duration of diarrhea somewhat better than just oral rehydration (ie other water) alone.

    It might, just possibly (they think) be better than nothing.

    On the other hand, Imodium already works really well.

    So, why do homeopaths get so damned thrilled about homeopathy?
    .

  7. Davdoodleson 26 Mar 2013 at 11:20 pm

    “If I understand Homeopathy, then sperm diluted in water should be the perfect birth control.”

    A conundrum.

    The Lore says that “(highly diluted) like cures like”. Thus, a molecule of arsenic in an ocean of water, when drunk, will cure arsenic poisoning. Or somesuch nonsense.

    But “pregnancy” is not a problem, unless you don’t want to be pregnant. And vice-versa, sort of.

    So, presumably, sperm diluted in water is actually a cure for infertility.

    While the the perfect birth control would be highly diluted foetus.

    All perfectly sensible. Really…
    .

  8. jt512on 27 Mar 2013 at 1:21 am

    Steve wrote:

    The evidence is a giant arrow pointing at the null hypothesis.

    What a great sentence. I shall have to steal it.

  9. PharmD28on 27 Mar 2013 at 11:46 am

    HarryBlack….

    Excellent points IMO

    I part time work at a CVS pharmacy…most people simply believe that the homoepathic products that are mingled all in with the other OTC treatments are simply just another treatment that must be legit because, well, how else could they sell it?

    Also your comments reminded me of a conversation with a patient about a diet pill…she pointed out to me that a radio personality endorsed the product as highly effective and that it was “clinically proven”….in her mind, it seemed like this had to carry some weight otherwise it would be misleading and possibly illegal….

    But we know, it is not…

  10. RickKon 27 Mar 2013 at 3:34 pm

    HarryBlack – excellent post. Thank you for sharing. If you don’t mind, I’m going to copy and quote your comment in future debates as a good example of how an open mind actually seeks truth.

    PharmD28 – I challenged the pharmacist at our local CVS with a $15 box of Oscillococcinum and asked him how he could sell something he knew didn’t work. He just smiled, pointed toward the supplements aisle, and said “we sell all kinds of stuff that doesn’t work, because people buy it”.

  11. Badly Shaved Monkeyon 27 Mar 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Should we find it curious that Saine did not repeat his claim that homeopathy reliably cures rabies and was left rather pathetically promoting that limp and useless diarrhoea work?

    Was it fear that even with a sympathetic audience such a clam would be met with angry astonishment?

  12. ccbowerson 27 Mar 2013 at 11:43 pm

    RickK-
    I hope you found that answer satisfying enough because that is the correct answer. I assume you know that that person is an employee that has no say in what is sold at the store, and at best can only comment truthfully when asked (whether he is a shruggy or not is a different question). This is a problem that extends beyond this, and applies to many situations.

    If the SGU became a widely syndicated show, it is almost certain that a bunch of commercials for a number of crappy supplements would be paired with the show, and there would be nothing they could do about it (except to criticize the very same products on their show, perhaps). Its an unfortunate reality that explains why challanging the individual at the bottom will accomplish little if the surrounding structure remains the same

  13. Murmuron 28 Mar 2013 at 7:00 am

    @HarryBlack,

    That is similar to my experience, and thank you for your post.

    I think growing up we come in contact with a lot of information and we trust those around us quite often without question. It is also very funny that since I have deviated from belief in quackery, inane spirituality that my friends and family cling to that I am now the one being called closed minded and intellectually stunted, despite being the only one who has actively hunted for ghosts (ran a casual ghost hunting company for 6 months before finances and boredom overtook us) and the only one of two who actually got a CAM qualification (Reiki for my shame).

    Discovering the SGU two years ago has been the final straw for me, it gave me the freedom to have my own thinking process. It only took me 33 years to find it, but two years in I feel so much better not having the yoke of “belief” to drag me down… I am free to analyse and nothing… nothing at all is taboo for me anymore. When I was in a band we had a saying when it came to our music “Murder your darlings”, meaning those riffs and lines in songs we were so attached to we analysed the closest and if they didn’t improve the song then they went first. Very often we found that those little darling moments we loved were what were holding the overall music back, if they stayed, they were the best bits of music we ever wrote.

    I do this now in my life. I look at the ideas, thoughts and beliefs I cling to most and really put them through the ringer. It is a very humbling thing and I know I am a better person for it and I am much better off for seeing I was wrong and admitting it.

  14. SkeptiDCon 29 Mar 2013 at 10:28 am

    Here is the link to the video of the debate if anyone is interested: http://mediasite.uchc.edu/mediasite41/Play/f45177db9279460797ffe70714a3f5611d

    Steve, I’m always amazed at how calm you remain in these situations. Saine came across as quite frazzled by raising his voice, theatrical gestures, and stumbling throughout. One of the highlights was when he forgot the third country in the diarrhea study and you interjected with “it was Mexico.” Classic. The guy is accusing you of not studying homeopathy but doesn’t even know the details of the studies that he quotes.

  15. BillyJoe7on 29 Mar 2013 at 6:05 pm

    SDC,

    Am I right in thinking that English is not Saine’s native language (either that or he has a rather idiosyncratic way of pronuncing many of the words he uses). If so, his stumbling can be forgiven. But he probably also made the mistake of trying to fit too much into his presentation as evidenced by him continually going overtime and having to be docked for each segment because of it and then still running overtime. Also he didn’t accuse Dr. Novella of not having studied homoeopathy, he “accused” him of not reading the homoeopathic literature (actually, he asked him if he had read it, probably knowing that he hadn’t, so it came across as an accusation to some extent). Finally, forgetting the third country was really an irrelevant detail (in other words, that was the least of his problems).

  16. tmac57on 29 Mar 2013 at 7:36 pm

    Thanks SkeptiDC for the video link (I wish YouTube videos streamed as seamlessly ;) ).
    I thought Steve did a great job,but them I am biased toward the rationalist position I guess.
    I thought that Saine was trying to get in a big ‘gotcha’ with the stacking of homeopathic literature,and maybe that influenced some,but to me,that would be like stacking up a bunch of witchcraft tomes,and saying if you haven’t waded through all of this nonsense,then you can’t criticize the art of casting spells. And I would also be careful if I were in Saine’s shoes,because he repeatedly cast aspersions on ‘allopathic’ medicine, and I would bet that he has not read even a thousandth of the available literature that a med student has to learn.

  17. ChrisHon 29 Mar 2013 at 10:34 pm

    What is interesting is to see the slides roll by as Saine was speaking, compared to them being almost static during Dr. Novella’s portion. It is also amusing that Saine brought up over century year old incidences.

    I am about halfway through.

  18. ChrisHon 29 Mar 2013 at 11:10 pm

    My ears hurt listening to Saine shout at you, Dr. Novella. I hope you did not lose any hearing.

  19. SkeptiDCon 04 Apr 2013 at 3:39 pm

    Billyjoe -

    Saine’s first language does not appear to be English. He came across as crazy regardless.

    He did in fact ask Steve at the very end if he had made every effort to study homeopathy to determine whether it was valid or not (I’m paraphrasing here). Really much of Saine’s argument had a strong theme running throughout that Steve had not properly examined homeopathy (or even “real” homeopathy as he kept clarifying.) But I do think it’s quite telling that he forgot the third country. While it’s a small detail, to me it shows that he doesn’t know the literature well, and in fact Steve knows it better.

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