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	<title>Comments on: CT Politicians Protect Lyme Quackery</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: johnnylight</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-38344</link>
		<dc:creator>johnnylight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank God, after 7 years and 30 docs later i finally got a Lyme doc that knows what to do about this epidemic.. Who needs science when we know we are sick and need treatments for Lyme, if you have all the symptoms of Lyme what else can it be? Even with the science we have plenty of peer reviewed articles of Late Stage Lyme, congenital Lyme... How many more patients must slip through the cracks and go undiagnosed and treated because of the ignorance of a few, we have just as many Lyme literates they except the fact the Lyme is hard to diagnose, treat and capable of relapse.. Lyme requires a Lyme expert that is properly trained in the diagnosis and treatment of Late stage Lyme...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank God, after 7 years and 30 docs later i finally got a Lyme doc that knows what to do about this epidemic.. Who needs science when we know we are sick and need treatments for Lyme, if you have all the symptoms of Lyme what else can it be? Even with the science we have plenty of peer reviewed articles of Late Stage Lyme, congenital Lyme&#8230; How many more patients must slip through the cracks and go undiagnosed and treated because of the ignorance of a few, we have just as many Lyme literates they except the fact the Lyme is hard to diagnose, treat and capable of relapse.. Lyme requires a Lyme expert that is properly trained in the diagnosis and treatment of Late stage Lyme&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12635</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12635</guid>
		<description>&quot;but to get back to the original point (unless I lost track) - does the H. pylori story provide evidence that the scientific consensus can be dead wrong for long past the time when the evidence should have changed their mind? I don’t think so. &quot;
It is a subjective proposition as one year may be long past for the layman, while 10-20 years may be normal for a scientist.
If we take H pylori as an example, the years between 1979 and 1983 may be regarded as an undue delay. But as there are multiple causes to that (time to set up tests, time to make the idea known, time to convince editors and reviewers to ok publication, time to appear at congresses etc) the time frame may be regarded as normal. If we then consider the time from &quot;general&quot; acceptance as indicated by as sudden jump in publications 1986-1990 the time frame may be regarded as short. Then there is the question of time from research consensus to practical application and acceptance in the medical community at large, which also may be a cause of perceived undue delays.

&quot;Does it justify rejecting the current scientific consensus on CLD because having a longstanding consensus is not predictive, or does not reflect the actual evidence? I don’t think so.&quot;
And you are probably right. But consensus could also be made to accomodate for experimental treatment in the absence of resolution with consensus treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;but to get back to the original point (unless I lost track) &#8211; does the H. pylori story provide evidence that the scientific consensus can be dead wrong for long past the time when the evidence should have changed their mind? I don’t think so. &#8221;<br />
It is a subjective proposition as one year may be long past for the layman, while 10-20 years may be normal for a scientist.<br />
If we take H pylori as an example, the years between 1979 and 1983 may be regarded as an undue delay. But as there are multiple causes to that (time to set up tests, time to make the idea known, time to convince editors and reviewers to ok publication, time to appear at congresses etc) the time frame may be regarded as normal. If we then consider the time from &#8220;general&#8221; acceptance as indicated by as sudden jump in publications 1986-1990 the time frame may be regarded as short. Then there is the question of time from research consensus to practical application and acceptance in the medical community at large, which also may be a cause of perceived undue delays.</p>
<p>&#8220;Does it justify rejecting the current scientific consensus on CLD because having a longstanding consensus is not predictive, or does not reflect the actual evidence? I don’t think so.&#8221;<br />
And you are probably right. But consensus could also be made to accomodate for experimental treatment in the absence of resolution with consensus treatment.</p>
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		<title>By: daedalus2u</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12621</link>
		<dc:creator>daedalus2u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12621</guid>
		<description>S, I noticed the smiley, but the point I was trying to make is that CTS may be the first presenting symptom of something more serious, like diabetes type 1.  There are a whole zoo of zebras that need to be ruled out.  What order they are ruled out in is less important than that they are ruled out.  

I am not a doctor, but I imagine the heuristic is to rule out conditions based on the product of their seriousness and likelihood. Serious and likely gets ruled out before serious and non-likely which gets ruled out before non-serious and non-likely.  To come to a conclusion too soon is bad care.  There may have been less awareness of CTS 20 years ago because computer mice hadn’t been in wide use before then.  That lack of awareness goes both ways.  Pain in the arm may have been looked at as more of a symptom of something else, like diabetes.  There are much better tests now to diagnose CTS.  When mine was diagnosed they measured the conduction velocity in the nerves and measured that it was decreased when the nerve went through the carpal tunnel. That was in the 1990s, not sure if that technique was available in the 1980s.  

Arm pain may be a symptom of abuse too.  There is a type of arm fracture that is virtually diagnostic of child abuse because there is essentially no other way for bones to be broken in a spiral fracture.  Asking straight up about abuse is often problematic because patients lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>S, I noticed the smiley, but the point I was trying to make is that CTS may be the first presenting symptom of something more serious, like diabetes type 1.  There are a whole zoo of zebras that need to be ruled out.  What order they are ruled out in is less important than that they are ruled out.  </p>
<p>I am not a doctor, but I imagine the heuristic is to rule out conditions based on the product of their seriousness and likelihood. Serious and likely gets ruled out before serious and non-likely which gets ruled out before non-serious and non-likely.  To come to a conclusion too soon is bad care.  There may have been less awareness of CTS 20 years ago because computer mice hadn’t been in wide use before then.  That lack of awareness goes both ways.  Pain in the arm may have been looked at as more of a symptom of something else, like diabetes.  There are much better tests now to diagnose CTS.  When mine was diagnosed they measured the conduction velocity in the nerves and measured that it was decreased when the nerve went through the carpal tunnel. That was in the 1990s, not sure if that technique was available in the 1980s.  </p>
<p>Arm pain may be a symptom of abuse too.  There is a type of arm fracture that is virtually diagnostic of child abuse because there is essentially no other way for bones to be broken in a spiral fracture.  Asking straight up about abuse is often problematic because patients lie.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Novella</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12616</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Novella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12616</guid>
		<description>but to get back to the original point (unless I lost track) - does the H. pylori story provide evidence that the scientific consensus can be dead wrong for long past the time when the evidence should have changed their mind? I don&#039;t think so. Does it justify rejecting the current scientific consensus on CLD because having a longstanding consensus is not predictive, or does not reflect the actual evidence? I don&#039;t think so. 

This is not a reason to dismiss the current consensus on CLD. 

And in any cases - I wish we could just focus on the evidence, rather than constantly having to argue about conspiracy theories and closed-mindedness. It is my contention that the latter is the refuge of those who do not have science on their side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but to get back to the original point (unless I lost track) &#8211; does the H. pylori story provide evidence that the scientific consensus can be dead wrong for long past the time when the evidence should have changed their mind? I don&#8217;t think so. Does it justify rejecting the current scientific consensus on CLD because having a longstanding consensus is not predictive, or does not reflect the actual evidence? I don&#8217;t think so. </p>
<p>This is not a reason to dismiss the current consensus on CLD. </p>
<p>And in any cases &#8211; I wish we could just focus on the evidence, rather than constantly having to argue about conspiracy theories and closed-mindedness. It is my contention that the latter is the refuge of those who do not have science on their side.</p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12615</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12615</guid>
		<description>Daedalus,
notice the smiley I added :-)

The little anecdote is btw from a visit I made more than 20 years ago.

And the most pertinent question would have been to ask me if I played some sport (e.g. tennis) or had some work that caused undue stress to one arm, not for bedwetting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daedalus,<br />
notice the smiley I added <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The little anecdote is btw from a visit I made more than 20 years ago.</p>
<p>And the most pertinent question would have been to ask me if I played some sport (e.g. tennis) or had some work that caused undue stress to one arm, not for bedwetting!</p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12614</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12614</guid>
		<description>Steven,
I would say we agree in principle.

If you consider that the initial proposal was put forth in 1979, we can maybe agree that these sentiments of being resisted, and subsequent written tradition, may refer to the period 1979 to about 1983 (I speculate grossly), while the causality you suggest may be more relevant for the period from, say, 1986 and forward, when the &quot;early adopters&quot; are rushing in. (Lets call 1984-85 the pivotal years that were key to the success or failure of the idea.)

That way we are both sort of right :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven,<br />
I would say we agree in principle.</p>
<p>If you consider that the initial proposal was put forth in 1979, we can maybe agree that these sentiments of being resisted, and subsequent written tradition, may refer to the period 1979 to about 1983 (I speculate grossly), while the causality you suggest may be more relevant for the period from, say, 1986 and forward, when the &#8220;early adopters&#8221; are rushing in. (Lets call 1984-85 the pivotal years that were key to the success or failure of the idea.)</p>
<p>That way we are both sort of right <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12613</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12613</guid>
		<description>tmac57,
&quot;no such thing as psychological problems, since they arise in the brain, and the brain is a physical system.Ok fine,&quot;

Correct

&quot;all...delusions need to be treated with drugs or physical intervention ( surgery maybe)? ...
Better reality through chemistry. Sounds good!&quot;

We are already walking down that lane. (See e.g. Nature 2008;452:674-675,1157-1159. and the NAS report &quot;Opportunities in Neuroscience for Future Army Applications&quot;)

There are a plethora of substances and methods used to &quot;improve reality&quot;. Prozac, alcohol, cannabinoids, transcranial magnetic stimulation, but also psychotherapy and cognitive behavioural therapy, vitamin d stoss cures, cognition enhancing drugs and so on.

My point is that all these methods affect biochemical expression in the body. Yes a very reductionist view, but it still is so (unless you believe in the supernatural.)

(Link to NAS report press release http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12500)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tmac57,<br />
&#8220;no such thing as psychological problems, since they arise in the brain, and the brain is a physical system.Ok fine,&#8221;</p>
<p>Correct</p>
<p>&#8220;all&#8230;delusions need to be treated with drugs or physical intervention ( surgery maybe)? &#8230;<br />
Better reality through chemistry. Sounds good!&#8221;</p>
<p>We are already walking down that lane. (See e.g. Nature 2008;452:674-675,1157-1159. and the NAS report &#8220;Opportunities in Neuroscience for Future Army Applications&#8221;)</p>
<p>There are a plethora of substances and methods used to &#8220;improve reality&#8221;. Prozac, alcohol, cannabinoids, transcranial magnetic stimulation, but also psychotherapy and cognitive behavioural therapy, vitamin d stoss cures, cognition enhancing drugs and so on.</p>
<p>My point is that all these methods affect biochemical expression in the body. Yes a very reductionist view, but it still is so (unless you believe in the supernatural.)</p>
<p>(Link to NAS report press release <a href="http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12500" rel="nofollow">http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12500</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Novella</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12611</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Novella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12611</guid>
		<description>s - I don&#039;t think you have made your case or countered Dr. Atwoods. My position, and Dr. Atwoods, is not that there wasn&#039;t initial skepticism and resistance to a radically new idea regarding the cause of ulcers. 

It is, rather, that initial skepticism is typical and appropriate. Most new ideas are wrong - but when you look back at the ones we now know to be correct it can be made to seem as if the skepticism was excessive. But it is just part of the process. 

What Atwood showed was that, despite initial skepticism, the research findings were taken seriously by some, the notion was explored, and because it was, in retrospect, correct - the research built to a consensus. More evidence led to more research which led to more evidence, until a threshold of acceptance was reached.

That is how science is supposed to work. 

Then, looking back, the scientists who were vindicated tend to exaggerate their plight and resistance to their ideas. There is a tendency (I see this all the time) for scientific resistance to be interpreted as bias and closed-mindedness - but it&#039;s just science. 

Actually, scientists who are not vindicated also think this, and blame their failure on the resistance, not the evidence. 

This is just human nature. 

There is a certain wisdom of the crowds - individuals will be stuck in the past and will be closed-minded, but the scientific community in general flows with the evidence. What Atwood was arguing is that looking at the number of publications in the literature is a better barometer of skepticism/acceptance than individual instances, which will tend to be biased toward dramatic resistance to later vindicated ideas - that is dramatic story humans like to tell. 

The bottom line is this - if you look at all the data, in most cases the scientific consensus tracks along pretty well with the evidence. There is initial skepticism to all ideas, which is appropriate, and opinion lags behind evidence a bit, which is unavoidable -  but in robust evidence-based fields opinions overall track with the evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>s &#8211; I don&#8217;t think you have made your case or countered Dr. Atwoods. My position, and Dr. Atwoods, is not that there wasn&#8217;t initial skepticism and resistance to a radically new idea regarding the cause of ulcers. </p>
<p>It is, rather, that initial skepticism is typical and appropriate. Most new ideas are wrong &#8211; but when you look back at the ones we now know to be correct it can be made to seem as if the skepticism was excessive. But it is just part of the process. </p>
<p>What Atwood showed was that, despite initial skepticism, the research findings were taken seriously by some, the notion was explored, and because it was, in retrospect, correct &#8211; the research built to a consensus. More evidence led to more research which led to more evidence, until a threshold of acceptance was reached.</p>
<p>That is how science is supposed to work. </p>
<p>Then, looking back, the scientists who were vindicated tend to exaggerate their plight and resistance to their ideas. There is a tendency (I see this all the time) for scientific resistance to be interpreted as bias and closed-mindedness &#8211; but it&#8217;s just science. </p>
<p>Actually, scientists who are not vindicated also think this, and blame their failure on the resistance, not the evidence. </p>
<p>This is just human nature. </p>
<p>There is a certain wisdom of the crowds &#8211; individuals will be stuck in the past and will be closed-minded, but the scientific community in general flows with the evidence. What Atwood was arguing is that looking at the number of publications in the literature is a better barometer of skepticism/acceptance than individual instances, which will tend to be biased toward dramatic resistance to later vindicated ideas &#8211; that is dramatic story humans like to tell. </p>
<p>The bottom line is this &#8211; if you look at all the data, in most cases the scientific consensus tracks along pretty well with the evidence. There is initial skepticism to all ideas, which is appropriate, and opinion lags behind evidence a bit, which is unavoidable &#8211;  but in robust evidence-based fields opinions overall track with the evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: tmac57</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12609</link>
		<dc:creator>tmac57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12609</guid>
		<description>s-&quot;not all med students suffer MSS and brain chemistry is definitively a physiological / biological cause. Or do you mean that there is some supernatural factor at work influencing their brains irrespective of the chemical reactions in said brains ? Reactions caused by the environment, which in this case consists of the information received.&quot;
   First, no one said that &quot;all&quot; med students suffer MSS. Read more carefully. Second, by your definition of physiological/biological then there apparently is no such thing as  psychological problems, since they arise in the brain, and the brain is a physical system.Ok fine, then I guess all of,what we would think of as psychological delusions need to be treated with drugs or physical intervention ( surgery maybe)? Or ,how about with BETTER &quot;information received&quot;( to alter their brain chemistry).  
   Better reality through chemistry. Sounds good!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>s-&#8221;not all med students suffer MSS and brain chemistry is definitively a physiological / biological cause. Or do you mean that there is some supernatural factor at work influencing their brains irrespective of the chemical reactions in said brains ? Reactions caused by the environment, which in this case consists of the information received.&#8221;<br />
   First, no one said that &#8220;all&#8221; med students suffer MSS. Read more carefully. Second, by your definition of physiological/biological then there apparently is no such thing as  psychological problems, since they arise in the brain, and the brain is a physical system.Ok fine, then I guess all of,what we would think of as psychological delusions need to be treated with drugs or physical intervention ( surgery maybe)? Or ,how about with BETTER &#8220;information received&#8221;( to alter their brain chemistry).<br />
   Better reality through chemistry. Sounds good!</p>
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		<title>By: daedalus2u</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ct-politicians-protect-lyme-quackery/comment-page-1/#comment-12604</link>
		<dc:creator>daedalus2u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=551#comment-12604</guid>
		<description>S, I cited the paper because it reported associations of other things with CTS.  If you look at pain in the arm as potentially a symptom of some other underlying problem (as any good doc would), you have to ask questions and do tests to rule in, or rule out those potential other problems.

I have CTS too (as did my mother and her father, they did&#039;t get it from using a computer, but from milking cows by hand), so I have looked into the physiology of it.    I think the reason CTS is associated with those other things is because of a final common pathway of low NO leading to increased inflammation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>S, I cited the paper because it reported associations of other things with CTS.  If you look at pain in the arm as potentially a symptom of some other underlying problem (as any good doc would), you have to ask questions and do tests to rule in, or rule out those potential other problems.</p>
<p>I have CTS too (as did my mother and her father, they did&#8217;t get it from using a computer, but from milking cows by hand), so I have looked into the physiology of it.    I think the reason CTS is associated with those other things is because of a final common pathway of low NO leading to increased inflammation.</p>
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