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	<title>Comments on: Choosing Your Evidence</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: Science-Based Medicine &#187; Another overhyped acupuncture study misinterpreted</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-21737</link>
		<dc:creator>Science-Based Medicine &#187; Another overhyped acupuncture study misinterpreted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 22:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-21737</guid>
		<description>[...] of research dollars are spent on studying it. Unfortunately, that money is largely wasted. As Steve Novella has pointed out, in general in medicine (at least these days), the trajectory of research is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of research dollars are spent on studying it. Unfortunately, that money is largely wasted. As Steve Novella has pointed out, in general in medicine (at least these days), the trajectory of research is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Science Makes You Awesome! 009 &#8211; Informed Consent</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-18032</link>
		<dc:creator>Science Makes You Awesome! 009 &#8211; Informed Consent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-18032</guid>
		<description>[...] products were being equally honest with the data they use to back up their claims. Of course, that&#8217;s rarely the case. Taken out of proper context, evidential claims can be made that run completely counter to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] products were being equally honest with the data they use to back up their claims. Of course, that&#8217;s rarely the case. Taken out of proper context, evidential claims can be made that run completely counter to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17873</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17873</guid>
		<description>tmac57-
I would agree- &quot;Do the benefits outweigh the risks?&quot; is the question.  That is more clearly stated than what I wrote.  Thanks.
I would also agree that any possible intervention could contain risk under some conceivable circumstance.  (and I have a rich and vivid imagination...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tmac57-<br />
I would agree- &#8220;Do the benefits outweigh the risks?&#8221; is the question.  That is more clearly stated than what I wrote.  Thanks.<br />
I would also agree that any possible intervention could contain risk under some conceivable circumstance.  (and I have a rich and vivid imagination&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: tmac57</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17871</link>
		<dc:creator>tmac57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17871</guid>
		<description>sonic-&quot;Therefore I would want the treatment being prescribed to be better than a placebo (as placebo should be truly safe).
If someone offers a treatment that doesn’t harm (massage for example)&quot;
   Are you really sure that massage is completely benign? I know that a person with symptoms of deep vein thrombosis, for example should avoid a massage, but what if they are unaware that that is what is causing their leg pain? Massage therapists use a variety of oils and lotions during the treatment.What if the client is allergic to those things? What if someone seeks a massage therapist who uses a particularly vigorous form of massage and the client  has an unrealized tissue or bone injury?
  The bottom line is that all forms of intervention can run the risk of some harm.The question is, &quot; do the benefits outweigh the risks?&quot;
 P.S. Has anyone in history ever choked to death trying to swallow a placebo? I bet you can find at least one case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonic-&#8221;Therefore I would want the treatment being prescribed to be better than a placebo (as placebo should be truly safe).<br />
If someone offers a treatment that doesn’t harm (massage for example)&#8221;<br />
   Are you really sure that massage is completely benign? I know that a person with symptoms of deep vein thrombosis, for example should avoid a massage, but what if they are unaware that that is what is causing their leg pain? Massage therapists use a variety of oils and lotions during the treatment.What if the client is allergic to those things? What if someone seeks a massage therapist who uses a particularly vigorous form of massage and the client  has an unrealized tissue or bone injury?<br />
  The bottom line is that all forms of intervention can run the risk of some harm.The question is, &#8221; do the benefits outweigh the risks?&#8221;<br />
 P.S. Has anyone in history ever choked to death trying to swallow a placebo? I bet you can find at least one case.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17865</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17865</guid>
		<description>I think there is an aspect that is being overlooked.
When I go to get a treatment one thing I want to know is, &#039;will this treatment do more good than harm?&#039;
If I go to an MD, often the treatment that is prescribed will actively harm me.  (Even aspirin fits this statement).  Therefore I would want the treatment being prescribed to be better than a placebo (as placebo should be truly safe).
If someone offers a treatment that doesn&#039;t harm (massage for example) I would want to know- &#039;will this do me more good than if I did nothing?&#039; (because it will not actively harm me in the way that most drugs do)
A different standard is not irrational in this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there is an aspect that is being overlooked.<br />
When I go to get a treatment one thing I want to know is, &#8216;will this treatment do more good than harm?&#8217;<br />
If I go to an MD, often the treatment that is prescribed will actively harm me.  (Even aspirin fits this statement).  Therefore I would want the treatment being prescribed to be better than a placebo (as placebo should be truly safe).<br />
If someone offers a treatment that doesn&#8217;t harm (massage for example) I would want to know- &#8216;will this do me more good than if I did nothing?&#8217; (because it will not actively harm me in the way that most drugs do)<br />
A different standard is not irrational in this case.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17864</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17864</guid>
		<description>@BKsea on 17 Feb 2010 at 3:28 pm &quot;In contrast, I can think of few (one) example from CAM where dissent was expressed from within the field. To me that says that everyone in CAM is afraid to throw stones lest their glass houses all come crashing down. The one case that comes to mind is the takedown of subluxations in chiropractic by chiropractors (see http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022). This study actual made me more inclined to see a chiropractor.&quot;  

Well, it shouldn&#039;t.  Chiropractic &quot;education&quot; still centers on subluxations http://www.chirocolleges.org/paradigm_scope_practice.html  Look at item 4.  Also, read their &quot;definition&quot; of subluxation and tell me how it compares to the original definition of a bone out of place.  You see, when their original description was shown to be invalid- they simply re-defined it.  

Also, a survey by chiros shows that 88% believe in subluxations http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B75KC-4F1H9GS-5&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=754fe88415cd702aa52be6484f7005b8 

You might think this is encouraging that 12% do not; but you&#039;d be wrong.  Most of them simply use a different term such as dysfunction or lesion (someone has compiled a list of 300 alternatives).  In the end, those who realize that the subluxation is a fairy-tale are very few, and much reviled by the others in the business.  

That is the chiro way- redefine and rename the 19th century claims and carry on as usual.  

So, if you find a chiro who really does not have a subluxation-based practice, what should you expect?  Well, they claim to be able to substitute for a PT; but they lack the formal education.  How many of them do imagine are competent as such?  Sure, they learn &quot;conversational medicine&quot; so they can dance around you with terminology; why not simply go to a PT and take out the guess-work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@BKsea on 17 Feb 2010 at 3:28 pm &#8220;In contrast, I can think of few (one) example from CAM where dissent was expressed from within the field. To me that says that everyone in CAM is afraid to throw stones lest their glass houses all come crashing down. The one case that comes to mind is the takedown of subluxations in chiropractic by chiropractors (see <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022</a>). This study actual made me more inclined to see a chiropractor.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Well, it shouldn&#8217;t.  Chiropractic &#8220;education&#8221; still centers on subluxations <a href="http://www.chirocolleges.org/paradigm_scope_practice.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.chirocolleges.org/paradigm_scope_practice.html</a>  Look at item 4.  Also, read their &#8220;definition&#8221; of subluxation and tell me how it compares to the original definition of a bone out of place.  You see, when their original description was shown to be invalid- they simply re-defined it.  </p>
<p>Also, a survey by chiros shows that 88% believe in subluxations <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#038;_udi=B75KC-4F1H9GS-5&#038;_user=10&#038;_rdoc=1&#038;_fmt=&#038;_orig=search&#038;_sort=d&#038;view=c&#038;_acct=C000050221&#038;_version=1&#038;_urlVersion=0&#038;_userid=10&#038;md5=754fe88415cd702aa52be6484f7005b8" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#038;_udi=B75KC-4F1H9GS-5&#038;_user=10&#038;_rdoc=1&#038;_fmt=&#038;_orig=search&#038;_sort=d&#038;view=c&#038;_acct=C000050221&#038;_version=1&#038;_urlVersion=0&#038;_userid=10&#038;md5=754fe88415cd702aa52be6484f7005b8</a> </p>
<p>You might think this is encouraging that 12% do not; but you&#8217;d be wrong.  Most of them simply use a different term such as dysfunction or lesion (someone has compiled a list of 300 alternatives).  In the end, those who realize that the subluxation is a fairy-tale are very few, and much reviled by the others in the business.  </p>
<p>That is the chiro way- redefine and rename the 19th century claims and carry on as usual.  </p>
<p>So, if you find a chiro who really does not have a subluxation-based practice, what should you expect?  Well, they claim to be able to substitute for a PT; but they lack the formal education.  How many of them do imagine are competent as such?  Sure, they learn &#8220;conversational medicine&#8221; so they can dance around you with terminology; why not simply go to a PT and take out the guess-work?</p>
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		<title>By: BKsea</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17861</link>
		<dc:creator>BKsea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17861</guid>
		<description>To me, one of the great things that distinguishes real medicine from CAM is the presence of internal dissent. When new claims are made based on scientific evidence, there are always other science-based medicine advocates questioning the evidence. Even established consensus opinions are frequently subjected to new analyses that may call the consensus into question (e.g. are current guidelines for mamography screening or colonoscopy optimal?). Science-based medicine survives and thrives in this environment.

In contrast, I can think of few (one) example from CAM where dissent was expressed from within the field. To me that says that everyone in CAM is afraid to throw stones lest their glass houses all come crashing down.  The one case that comes to mind is the takedown of subluxations in chiropractic by chiropractors (see http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022). This study actual made me more inclined to see a chiropractor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, one of the great things that distinguishes real medicine from CAM is the presence of internal dissent. When new claims are made based on scientific evidence, there are always other science-based medicine advocates questioning the evidence. Even established consensus opinions are frequently subjected to new analyses that may call the consensus into question (e.g. are current guidelines for mamography screening or colonoscopy optimal?). Science-based medicine survives and thrives in this environment.</p>
<p>In contrast, I can think of few (one) example from CAM where dissent was expressed from within the field. To me that says that everyone in CAM is afraid to throw stones lest their glass houses all come crashing down.  The one case that comes to mind is the takedown of subluxations in chiropractic by chiropractors (see <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022</a>). This study actual made me more inclined to see a chiropractor.</p>
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		<title>By: daedalus2u</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17859</link>
		<dc:creator>daedalus2u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17859</guid>
		<description>Nice article.  However a slight quibble, I know what you mean and I think that most every other scientist knows what you mean, but it is clear that the pseudoscientists don&#039;t understand what you mean and won&#039;t understand what you mean.  

Medical researchers don&#039;t use double-blind studies because those are the scientific “rules”, dictated from on high by the scientific elite.  They use double-blind studies because that eliminates the possibility of bias.  If the researcher doesn&#039;t know which patients got which treatment, the researcher can&#039;t use that information to bias their observations, consciously or subconsciously.  

You can do “science” without double blind studies, however what ever studies you do that are not double blind, you cannot eliminate the possibility of bias, either on the part of patients or researchers.  Your conclusions will always be unable to eliminate the possibility that the effect is due to some sort of bias.  You can reduce that possibility by using instrumental measures, blood tests, tests that produce results independent of human subjectivity, but the possibility of some sort of unknown bias, mind-body thing, or even supernatural non-physical healing powers on the part of the researcher, cannot be eliminated.  

I am not suggesting that any researchers actually do have supernatural non-physical healing powers, but the possibility that such powers are causing a differential healing effect can be eliminated in a double blind study because the researchers don&#039;t know which individuals to apply those healing powers to.  

The purpose of medical research is to produce treatments that are generalizable, that is treatments that essentially any clinician can apply.  Unless clinical trials are done under conditions where the interactions of the clinicians are known and controlled, the possibility of the treatment “working” because of supernatural healing powers on the part of the clinician can&#039;t be eliminated.  That makes any treatment developed non-generalizable.  

CAM promoters want to have it both ways, they want to put the trappings of science on their non-blinded studies and claim that the outcomes are non-magical, but then pretend that the non-blinded clinician played no role in the outcome other than as an inert automaton going through the (magical) motions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.  However a slight quibble, I know what you mean and I think that most every other scientist knows what you mean, but it is clear that the pseudoscientists don&#8217;t understand what you mean and won&#8217;t understand what you mean.  </p>
<p>Medical researchers don&#8217;t use double-blind studies because those are the scientific “rules”, dictated from on high by the scientific elite.  They use double-blind studies because that eliminates the possibility of bias.  If the researcher doesn&#8217;t know which patients got which treatment, the researcher can&#8217;t use that information to bias their observations, consciously or subconsciously.  </p>
<p>You can do “science” without double blind studies, however what ever studies you do that are not double blind, you cannot eliminate the possibility of bias, either on the part of patients or researchers.  Your conclusions will always be unable to eliminate the possibility that the effect is due to some sort of bias.  You can reduce that possibility by using instrumental measures, blood tests, tests that produce results independent of human subjectivity, but the possibility of some sort of unknown bias, mind-body thing, or even supernatural non-physical healing powers on the part of the researcher, cannot be eliminated.  </p>
<p>I am not suggesting that any researchers actually do have supernatural non-physical healing powers, but the possibility that such powers are causing a differential healing effect can be eliminated in a double blind study because the researchers don&#8217;t know which individuals to apply those healing powers to.  </p>
<p>The purpose of medical research is to produce treatments that are generalizable, that is treatments that essentially any clinician can apply.  Unless clinical trials are done under conditions where the interactions of the clinicians are known and controlled, the possibility of the treatment “working” because of supernatural healing powers on the part of the clinician can&#8217;t be eliminated.  That makes any treatment developed non-generalizable.  </p>
<p>CAM promoters want to have it both ways, they want to put the trappings of science on their non-blinded studies and claim that the outcomes are non-magical, but then pretend that the non-blinded clinician played no role in the outcome other than as an inert automaton going through the (magical) motions.</p>
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		<title>By: banyan</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/choosing-your-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-17858</link>
		<dc:creator>banyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1609#comment-17858</guid>
		<description>The solution to gerrymandering is proportional representation.  Unfortunately the solution to quack claims seems to be a bit more complicated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The solution to gerrymandering is proportional representation.  Unfortunately the solution to quack claims seems to be a bit more complicated.</p>
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