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	<title>Comments on: Charges Dropped in Chelation-Autism Death</title>
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	<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/</link>
	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: People Say Vaccines Cause Autism</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-12372</link>
		<dc:creator>People Say Vaccines Cause Autism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-12372</guid>
		<description>[...] NeroLogica, Dr. Novella explores the reasons that myths regarding vaccinations causing autism are still around [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] NeroLogica, Dr. Novella explores the reasons that myths regarding vaccinations causing autism are still around [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mailbag: Robert Hinkley on David Kirby, Autism, and Vaccines &#171; Submitted to a Candid World</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3925</link>
		<dc:creator>Mailbag: Robert Hinkley on David Kirby, Autism, and Vaccines &#171; Submitted to a Candid World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3925</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;unprovoked&#8221; reference results is explained better than I can do it by Steven Novella here. I also guess Kirby&#8217;s not aware of the 2007 paper published in &#8216;Clinical [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;unprovoked&#8221; reference results is explained better than I can do it by Steven Novella here. I also guess Kirby&#8217;s not aware of the 2007 paper published in &#8216;Clinical [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NeuroLogica Blog &#187; Anti-Vaccinationists Bring a Knife to a Gun-fight</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3306</link>
		<dc:creator>NeuroLogica Blog &#187; Anti-Vaccinationists Bring a Knife to a Gun-fight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 14:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3306</guid>
		<description>[...] and measuring various neurological outcomes. Here&#8217;s mine - Kim Spencer left this comment on my recent post about the chelation related death case: when are you going to get down and dirty on the new monkey [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and measuring various neurological outcomes. Here&#8217;s mine &#8211; Kim Spencer left this comment on my recent post about the chelation related death case: when are you going to get down and dirty on the new monkey [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kim spencer</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3304</link>
		<dc:creator>kim spencer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 01:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3304</guid>
		<description>when are you going to get down and dirty on the new monkey study?  waiting on your opinion on how this could be wrong....
http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/pediatric-vacci.html

can&#039;t wait for your explanations!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>when are you going to get down and dirty on the new monkey study?  waiting on your opinion on how this could be wrong&#8230;.<br />
<a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/pediatric-vacci.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/05/pediatric-vacci.html</a></p>
<p>can&#8217;t wait for your explanations!!!</p>
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		<title>By: DevilsAdvocate</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3166</link>
		<dc:creator>DevilsAdvocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 21:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3166</guid>
		<description>Um, I&#039; m including Dr. Novella among the good fighters, not the lowerers. Heh. Vague wording. Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, I&#8217; m including Dr. Novella among the good fighters, not the lowerers. Heh. Vague wording. Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: DevilsAdvocate</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3165</link>
		<dc:creator>DevilsAdvocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 21:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3165</guid>
		<description>When an educated, trained, and licensed physician says, in essence, &quot;I have no evidence but a strong belief that chelation will cure autism. There are risks, even of death, but my belief is so strong I&#039;m willing - for a fee - to risk your son&#039;s death on it...&quot; yeah, I think manslaughter or similar applicable charge is tenable. Is he guilty? By tenable, I mean the case is sufficient for trial, for consideration, before a judge or jury, defendant&#039;s choice. They decide, after hearing the evidence. 

And the above is the best case scenario - a self-deluded but otherwise well-intended physician. But, if he has knowingly defrauded this family by providing and charging for treatment he knows has no case for efficacy, well... I&#039;d favor maximum sentencing too. 

As a health care consumer who tries to stay in the real world, I  expect perfection out of no doctor, no clinician, but I do expect them to professionally manage these risk/benefit ratios, in fact, am paying for their expertise to do just that. That&#039;s as it should be and I am certain few doctors would disagree - the medical field is to be respected for its adherance to high ethics, and I am gratified to see so many &#039;fight the good fight&#039; against whatever serves to lower those ethics, Dr. Novella absolutely among them. They have my full support. 

Ours (US) is a large country and the set called &quot;medical practioners&quot; is large enough and open enough to have its ethical and philosophical fringe. Without negative consequences for unethical or even criminal acts, the hurtful aspects of their practcing go unchecked, rewarded even. 

But this guy? Action ought to be brought. Such practice needs review.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When an educated, trained, and licensed physician says, in essence, &#8220;I have no evidence but a strong belief that chelation will cure autism. There are risks, even of death, but my belief is so strong I&#8217;m willing &#8211; for a fee &#8211; to risk your son&#8217;s death on it&#8230;&#8221; yeah, I think manslaughter or similar applicable charge is tenable. Is he guilty? By tenable, I mean the case is sufficient for trial, for consideration, before a judge or jury, defendant&#8217;s choice. They decide, after hearing the evidence. </p>
<p>And the above is the best case scenario &#8211; a self-deluded but otherwise well-intended physician. But, if he has knowingly defrauded this family by providing and charging for treatment he knows has no case for efficacy, well&#8230; I&#8217;d favor maximum sentencing too. </p>
<p>As a health care consumer who tries to stay in the real world, I  expect perfection out of no doctor, no clinician, but I do expect them to professionally manage these risk/benefit ratios, in fact, am paying for their expertise to do just that. That&#8217;s as it should be and I am certain few doctors would disagree &#8211; the medical field is to be respected for its adherance to high ethics, and I am gratified to see so many &#8216;fight the good fight&#8217; against whatever serves to lower those ethics, Dr. Novella absolutely among them. They have my full support. </p>
<p>Ours (US) is a large country and the set called &#8220;medical practioners&#8221; is large enough and open enough to have its ethical and philosophical fringe. Without negative consequences for unethical or even criminal acts, the hurtful aspects of their practcing go unchecked, rewarded even. </p>
<p>But this guy? Action ought to be brought. Such practice needs review.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Page</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3161</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 17:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3161</guid>
		<description>badrabbi,

From wikipedia:

&lt;i&gt;Involuntary manslaughter, sometimes called criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales or culpable homicide in Scotland occurs where there is no intention to kill or cause serious injury but death is due to recklessness or criminal negligence.&lt;/i&gt;
I&#039;d say that that&#039;s an accurate summation of what happened to that boy.

Off-topic (off at a tangent, anyway), I once had a conversation with someone who was attempting to impose himself as the alpha male. Whilst regaling me with his tales of machismo, he said that he&#039;d been held on remand for attempted manslaughter. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>badrabbi,</p>
<p>From wikipedia:</p>
<p><i>Involuntary manslaughter, sometimes called criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales or culpable homicide in Scotland occurs where there is no intention to kill or cause serious injury but death is due to recklessness or criminal negligence.</i><br />
I&#8217;d say that that&#8217;s an accurate summation of what happened to that boy.</p>
<p>Off-topic (off at a tangent, anyway), I once had a conversation with someone who was attempting to impose himself as the alpha male. Whilst regaling me with his tales of machismo, he said that he&#8217;d been held on remand for attempted manslaughter. <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Steven Novella</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3160</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Novella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 17:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3160</guid>
		<description>I think that these matters are best left to civil (malpractice) and regulatory courts. The family should be compensated, and he should have his license taken away. I think the bar for criminal charges for physicians who are simply incompetent should be very high - would have to show depraved indifference, for example. 

IV EDTA in children is a moderate risk statistically, but that risk includes the possibility of death - it is reasonable to say &quot;high&quot; risk based upon the possibility of death.

Because there is no proven efficacy for autism, and no scientific justification for it, that&#039;s risk without benefit, and I would argue that any deaths are unacceptable because they have bought nothing in terms of health benefit to anyone. 

Chelation therapy, however, does work for what it is supposed to do - it does chelate heavy metals and is an approved treatment for legitimate heavy metal poisoning. Other uses may also be found. But each indication must stand on its own evidence - it matters not if it is useful for anything else, it is worthless for autism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that these matters are best left to civil (malpractice) and regulatory courts. The family should be compensated, and he should have his license taken away. I think the bar for criminal charges for physicians who are simply incompetent should be very high &#8211; would have to show depraved indifference, for example. </p>
<p>IV EDTA in children is a moderate risk statistically, but that risk includes the possibility of death &#8211; it is reasonable to say &#8220;high&#8221; risk based upon the possibility of death.</p>
<p>Because there is no proven efficacy for autism, and no scientific justification for it, that&#8217;s risk without benefit, and I would argue that any deaths are unacceptable because they have bought nothing in terms of health benefit to anyone. </p>
<p>Chelation therapy, however, does work for what it is supposed to do &#8211; it does chelate heavy metals and is an approved treatment for legitimate heavy metal poisoning. Other uses may also be found. But each indication must stand on its own evidence &#8211; it matters not if it is useful for anything else, it is worthless for autism.</p>
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		<title>By: badrabbi</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3159</link>
		<dc:creator>badrabbi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 17:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3159</guid>
		<description>Devil;

Are you saying that 1) there is a high risk of EDTA?, and 2) EDTA has no efficacy?

I suggest that you are wrong. I am not an expert on EDTA, but from what I was reading, fatalities are extremely rare from this medication, as are morbidity rates. So why do you say &quot;risks = great&quot;?

I also am aware of much anecdotal evidence that chelation has some efficacy. I am aware of a number of qualified ophthalmologists in FL, for example, who were routinely giving chelation therapy for macular degeneration. These doctors presented their findings at respectable meetings. A prospective randomized trial was undertaken which showed no statistically significant efficacy in this disease (but a positive trend), but the study has been widely criticized. There remains an albeit minority of physicians, who are otherwise competent, who continue to use this therapy.

Now, suppose they are wrong. Let us grant that they even have misread the data and have misapplied their experience. Let&#039;s even grant that they are motivated in part by greed. In this cases, they are perhaps guilty of medical malpractice.


But manslaughter?

Give me a break!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Devil;</p>
<p>Are you saying that 1) there is a high risk of EDTA?, and 2) EDTA has no efficacy?</p>
<p>I suggest that you are wrong. I am not an expert on EDTA, but from what I was reading, fatalities are extremely rare from this medication, as are morbidity rates. So why do you say &#8220;risks = great&#8221;?</p>
<p>I also am aware of much anecdotal evidence that chelation has some efficacy. I am aware of a number of qualified ophthalmologists in FL, for example, who were routinely giving chelation therapy for macular degeneration. These doctors presented their findings at respectable meetings. A prospective randomized trial was undertaken which showed no statistically significant efficacy in this disease (but a positive trend), but the study has been widely criticized. There remains an albeit minority of physicians, who are otherwise competent, who continue to use this therapy.</p>
<p>Now, suppose they are wrong. Let us grant that they even have misread the data and have misapplied their experience. Let&#8217;s even grant that they are motivated in part by greed. In this cases, they are perhaps guilty of medical malpractice.</p>
<p>But manslaughter?</p>
<p>Give me a break!</p>
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		<title>By: daedalus2u</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charges-dropped-in-chelation-autism-death/comment-page-1/#comment-3158</link>
		<dc:creator>daedalus2u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 17:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=290#comment-3158</guid>
		<description>I hope that when there is a civil lawsuit, that the jury recognizes the danger that Kerry poses and the inability of the criminal justice system to deal with such dangers.  I  hope they take the appropriate action, such that he is never able to practice again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope that when there is a civil lawsuit, that the jury recognizes the danger that Kerry poses and the inability of the criminal justice system to deal with such dangers.  I  hope they take the appropriate action, such that he is never able to practice again.</p>
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