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	<title>Comments on: Beware the Spinal Trap</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-15169</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If BCA posted a release that Singh had written a malicious attack, then they meant that he wrote with ill will and without cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If BCA posted a release that Singh had written a malicious attack, then they meant that he wrote with ill will and without cause.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-15162</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-15162</guid>
		<description>I hope this is not considered excessive, I am not certain of the overlap in blog readership:

A quick recap- Simon Singh wrote an Op-Ed piece saying the British Chiro Ass’n (BCA) saying they offered “bogus” treatments* and the BCA sued him for libel. The judge (Eady) in the case found Singh’s comments were meant as fact, not opinion, and that “bogus” meant fraudulent (as-in, chiros know their methods don’t work).

He was “barred” from appealing Eady’s findings. Except, under British law, he could ask the higher court for permission to appeal.

Last Wednesday (Oct. 14) the appeals court granted Singh permission to appeal Eady’s findings.

Then, the spit hit the fan and we await the repercussions. The BCA posted a press-release saying that Singh had written a malicious attack on them. According to a lawyer involved peripherally with the case, the BCA has libeled Singh by saying he was “malicious” and now Singh can counter-sue. http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/10/bca-defame-simon-singh.html In fact, the judge on Wednesday noted that malice was not involved. The BCA quickly changed the wording in the PR statement; but they were too late make it like it never happened.

The lawyer has noted that it is up to Singh to decide how to proceed; but it gives him a good option.

* Singh mentioned specific, bogus treatments (for colic, ear infections, etc.), not everything they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope this is not considered excessive, I am not certain of the overlap in blog readership:</p>
<p>A quick recap- Simon Singh wrote an Op-Ed piece saying the British Chiro Ass’n (BCA) saying they offered “bogus” treatments* and the BCA sued him for libel. The judge (Eady) in the case found Singh’s comments were meant as fact, not opinion, and that “bogus” meant fraudulent (as-in, chiros know their methods don’t work).</p>
<p>He was “barred” from appealing Eady’s findings. Except, under British law, he could ask the higher court for permission to appeal.</p>
<p>Last Wednesday (Oct. 14) the appeals court granted Singh permission to appeal Eady’s findings.</p>
<p>Then, the spit hit the fan and we await the repercussions. The BCA posted a press-release saying that Singh had written a malicious attack on them. According to a lawyer involved peripherally with the case, the BCA has libeled Singh by saying he was “malicious” and now Singh can counter-sue. <a href="http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/10/bca-defame-simon-singh.html" rel="nofollow">http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/10/bca-defame-simon-singh.html</a> In fact, the judge on Wednesday noted that malice was not involved. The BCA quickly changed the wording in the PR statement; but they were too late make it like it never happened.</p>
<p>The lawyer has noted that it is up to Singh to decide how to proceed; but it gives him a good option.</p>
<p>* Singh mentioned specific, bogus treatments (for colic, ear infections, etc.), not everything they do.</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13525</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13525</guid>
		<description>SteveA,  I concur with your objection about the original post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveA,  I concur with your objection about the original post.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveA</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13522</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13522</guid>
		<description># Joeon 04 Aug 2009 at 12:33 pm &quot;I beg to differ. When you assert anything (e.g., libel) you must prove your claim. &quot;

How does this differ from what I said?

If I accuse a cat-food manufacturer of mixing rat meat with their tuna, and the manufacturer accuses me of libel, then it&#039;s up to me to prove my claim, it&#039;s not the manufacturer&#039;s job to run around and try to prove me wrong. This arrangment is practical, fair and just. 

My objection to Steve&#039;s original post was that he seems to think this arrangement is somehow &#039;cockeyed&#039; and that the opposite ought to be true, ie that the manufacturer should be the one trying to prove themselves innocent of wrongdoing in the face of any claim anyone might want to make about them.

As to the &#039;quacks&#039; comment. I didn&#039;t say that the case had anything to do with the BCA being &#039;quacks&#039;, I just used the term to describe them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># Joeon 04 Aug 2009 at 12:33 pm &#8220;I beg to differ. When you assert anything (e.g., libel) you must prove your claim. &#8221;</p>
<p>How does this differ from what I said?</p>
<p>If I accuse a cat-food manufacturer of mixing rat meat with their tuna, and the manufacturer accuses me of libel, then it&#8217;s up to me to prove my claim, it&#8217;s not the manufacturer&#8217;s job to run around and try to prove me wrong. This arrangment is practical, fair and just. </p>
<p>My objection to Steve&#8217;s original post was that he seems to think this arrangement is somehow &#8216;cockeyed&#8217; and that the opposite ought to be true, ie that the manufacturer should be the one trying to prove themselves innocent of wrongdoing in the face of any claim anyone might want to make about them.</p>
<p>As to the &#8216;quacks&#8217; comment. I didn&#8217;t say that the case had anything to do with the BCA being &#8216;quacks&#8217;, I just used the term to describe them.</p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13506</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13506</guid>
		<description>The practice is legitimate in Great Britain and the U.S.A.!  Why do they keep fairy tales around?  Because people love fairy stories and myths.  What would we do without  Palmer&#039;s circuses? Would we prefer to be entertained by information about partially herniated disks or the autonomic or parasympathetic systems?  The average person with lower back pain wants a quick fix, not a lecture in anatomy.  So, its up to the professionals to keep revising their definitions to fit the knowledge and science of the times. And if you hear a lecture by a Dr. Quack, just pull on his tail feathers a bit and he&#039;ll straighten up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The practice is legitimate in Great Britain and the U.S.A.!  Why do they keep fairy tales around?  Because people love fairy stories and myths.  What would we do without  Palmer&#8217;s circuses? Would we prefer to be entertained by information about partially herniated disks or the autonomic or parasympathetic systems?  The average person with lower back pain wants a quick fix, not a lecture in anatomy.  So, its up to the professionals to keep revising their definitions to fit the knowledge and science of the times. And if you hear a lecture by a Dr. Quack, just pull on his tail feathers a bit and he&#8217;ll straighten up.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13496</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13496</guid>
		<description>@HHC on 05 Aug 2009 at 12:58 am &quot;If neurology got past phrenology, then chiropractic care can move beyond subluxation.&quot;

Did neurology develop from phrenology?  Nevertheless, chiropractors have had ample time to adopt legitimate practice, as osteopaths have done (only in the USA).  All the information they need is available, free, in libraries.  Chiros clearly don&#039;t want to become legitimate practitioners because they will lose too much business, or they will have to spend a lot of money to make their schools into something professional, and competitive, such as PT.  Chiropractors who &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; try to reform are reviled by the rest.  

Suppose chiros domanage to move beyond their fairy-tales.  Can you explain to me why chiros should be allowed to continue to ply their bogus trade &lt;i&gt;as if&lt;/i&gt; it were legitimate until it becomes so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@HHC on 05 Aug 2009 at 12:58 am &#8220;If neurology got past phrenology, then chiropractic care can move beyond subluxation.&#8221;</p>
<p>Did neurology develop from phrenology?  Nevertheless, chiropractors have had ample time to adopt legitimate practice, as osteopaths have done (only in the USA).  All the information they need is available, free, in libraries.  Chiros clearly don&#8217;t want to become legitimate practitioners because they will lose too much business, or they will have to spend a lot of money to make their schools into something professional, and competitive, such as PT.  Chiropractors who <i>do</i> try to reform are reviled by the rest.  </p>
<p>Suppose chiros domanage to move beyond their fairy-tales.  Can you explain to me why chiros should be allowed to continue to ply their bogus trade <i>as if</i> it were legitimate until it becomes so?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13493</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 12:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13493</guid>
		<description>@HHC on 05 Aug 2009 at 12:58 am &quot;... the British judge in the Singh case is more knowledgable on the subject matter ...&quot; 

It depends on what you mean by &quot;subject matter.&quot;  If you mean UK libel law, sure; but he has previously made decisions that shocked the legal community there, to the extent that he has been remonstrated by higher courts.  Does he know more about the meaning of &quot;bogus,&quot; perhaps; I would like the opinion of lexicographers.  The judge certainly is not better informed on the subject of chiro than I, and many others here.  

If Singh loses the case, it will be based on the judge&#039;s definition of &quot;bogus&quot; not the legitimacy of chiro for treatment of the conditions (colic, asthma, etc.) cited in Singh&#039;s article.  When the BCA laterly published their data &quot;supporting&quot; such treatment claims, it was a joke, see here http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=555 and here http://layscience.net/node/598 among many deconstructions.  

You can read legal commentary on the case here http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@HHC on 05 Aug 2009 at 12:58 am &#8220;&#8230; the British judge in the Singh case is more knowledgable on the subject matter &#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>It depends on what you mean by &#8220;subject matter.&#8221;  If you mean UK libel law, sure; but he has previously made decisions that shocked the legal community there, to the extent that he has been remonstrated by higher courts.  Does he know more about the meaning of &#8220;bogus,&#8221; perhaps; I would like the opinion of lexicographers.  The judge certainly is not better informed on the subject of chiro than I, and many others here.  </p>
<p>If Singh loses the case, it will be based on the judge&#8217;s definition of &#8220;bogus&#8221; not the legitimacy of chiro for treatment of the conditions (colic, asthma, etc.) cited in Singh&#8217;s article.  When the BCA laterly published their data &#8220;supporting&#8221; such treatment claims, it was a joke, see here <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=555" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=555</a> and here <a href="http://layscience.net/node/598" rel="nofollow">http://layscience.net/node/598</a> among many deconstructions.  </p>
<p>You can read legal commentary on the case here <a href="http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: HHC</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13491</link>
		<dc:creator>HHC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 04:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13491</guid>
		<description>If neurology got past phrenology, then chiropractic care can move beyond subluxation.   Know that the British judge in the Singh case is more knowledgable on the subject matter than those making comments on this blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If neurology got past phrenology, then chiropractic care can move beyond subluxation.   Know that the British judge in the Singh case is more knowledgable on the subject matter than those making comments on this blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13481</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 16:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13481</guid>
		<description>@SteveA on 04 Aug 2009 at 7:19 am &quot;If I’m carrying on a business and someone publishes an article saying I’m up to no good, then I’M the injured party, I’M the person who is innocent untill proven guilty.&quot;

I beg to differ.  When you assert anything (e.g., libel) &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; must prove your claim.  

In this particular case, the question is not whether chiros are quacks.  The judge has ruled that when Singh called their treatments &quot;bogus&quot; that meant &quot;deliberately fraudulent.&quot;  Which means, a proper defense requires him to show that they know the treatments don&#039;t work (what is on their minds); whereas, we think they believe their bogus claims because they are deluded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@SteveA on 04 Aug 2009 at 7:19 am &#8220;If I’m carrying on a business and someone publishes an article saying I’m up to no good, then I’M the injured party, I’M the person who is innocent untill proven guilty.&#8221;</p>
<p>I beg to differ.  When you assert anything (e.g., libel) <i>you</i> must prove your claim.  </p>
<p>In this particular case, the question is not whether chiros are quacks.  The judge has ruled that when Singh called their treatments &#8220;bogus&#8221; that meant &#8220;deliberately fraudulent.&#8221;  Which means, a proper defense requires him to show that they know the treatments don&#8217;t work (what is on their minds); whereas, we think they believe their bogus claims because they are deluded.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveA</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/beware-the-spinal-trap/comment-page-1/#comment-13472</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=663#comment-13472</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m coming to this a bit late but I have to object to the following:

&quot;In England suing for libel is an effective strategy for silencing critics. The burden of proof is on the one accused (guilty until proven innnocent) and the costs are ruinous. Simon has persisted, however, at great personal expense.&quot;

If I&#039;m carrying on a business and someone publishes an article saying I&#039;m up to no good, then I&#039;M the injured party, I&#039;M the person who is innocent untill proven guilty. It&#039;s up to my accuser to prove their case.

Having said that I&#039;m confident that Simon will expose the BCA for the bunch* of quacks they are.

*What&#039;s a better collective noun for quacks? A fraud? A conspiracy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m coming to this a bit late but I have to object to the following:</p>
<p>&#8220;In England suing for libel is an effective strategy for silencing critics. The burden of proof is on the one accused (guilty until proven innnocent) and the costs are ruinous. Simon has persisted, however, at great personal expense.&#8221;</p>
<p>If I&#8217;m carrying on a business and someone publishes an article saying I&#8217;m up to no good, then I&#8217;M the injured party, I&#8217;M the person who is innocent untill proven guilty. It&#8217;s up to my accuser to prove their case.</p>
<p>Having said that I&#8217;m confident that Simon will expose the BCA for the bunch* of quacks they are.</p>
<p>*What&#8217;s a better collective noun for quacks? A fraud? A conspiracy?</p>
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