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	<title>Comments on: Ardipithecus ramidus</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: MarkW</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14932</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14932</guid>
		<description>&quot;Our human biases lead to the tendency to imagine that the common ancestor between humans and chimps was very chimp-like, but chimps are just as far from that ancestor as we are.&quot; 

Technically they&#039;re probably further. Chimpanzee generation-times are shorter than ours, so while we&#039;re Ardipithecus&#039; great-to-the-power-of-200000-nephews and nieces, modern Chimps are the great-to-the-power-of-300000-nephews and nieces.

(Numbers pulled from a hat, but you get my point.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Our human biases lead to the tendency to imagine that the common ancestor between humans and chimps was very chimp-like, but chimps are just as far from that ancestor as we are.&#8221; </p>
<p>Technically they&#8217;re probably further. Chimpanzee generation-times are shorter than ours, so while we&#8217;re Ardipithecus&#8217; great-to-the-power-of-200000-nephews and nieces, modern Chimps are the great-to-the-power-of-300000-nephews and nieces.</p>
<p>(Numbers pulled from a hat, but you get my point.)</p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14918</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14918</guid>
		<description>Hyperion, John Hawkes recently wrote an overview at his blog: http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/miocene_apes/late-miocene-african-apes-chronology-2009.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hyperion, John Hawkes recently wrote an overview at his blog: <a href="http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/miocene_apes/late-miocene-african-apes-chronology-2009.html" rel="nofollow">http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/miocene_apes/late-miocene-african-apes-chronology-2009.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14917</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:25:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14917</guid>
		<description>A complementing overview can be found on John Hawkes web: http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/ardipithecus/ardipithecus-faq-2009.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A complementing overview can be found on John Hawkes web: <a href="http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/ardipithecus/ardipithecus-faq-2009.html" rel="nofollow">http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/ardipithecus/ardipithecus-faq-2009.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hyperion</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14916</link>
		<dc:creator>Hyperion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14916</guid>
		<description>This sort of leads to another question that I&#039;ve often wondered (and I know that I&#039;m not the only one who has wondered this), but where are the fossils of chimp ancestors?

The general explanation has always been something along the lines that chimpanzee&#039;s live primarily in wooded habitats that aren&#039;t conducive to fossilization.  This is true, but is a rather inelegant explanation.  I do have to wonder whether some &quot;hominid&quot; fossils may be chimp/gorilla ancestors.  Not Ardi, but I&#039;m thinking more along the lines of boisei and robustus (whichever genus they&#039;ve now been placed in, if I remember correctly they were moved out of Australopithecus).

As you mention, there&#039;s no reason why every hominid fossil necessarily represents a direct ancestor of ours, but there&#039;s also no reason why they couldn&#039;t also represent ancestors on the chimp or gorilla lines.  This is especially interesting in light of the hypothesis that our common ancestor may have been more resemblant of humans (or at least, would not have resembled modern chimps or gorillas).

Just food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sort of leads to another question that I&#8217;ve often wondered (and I know that I&#8217;m not the only one who has wondered this), but where are the fossils of chimp ancestors?</p>
<p>The general explanation has always been something along the lines that chimpanzee&#8217;s live primarily in wooded habitats that aren&#8217;t conducive to fossilization.  This is true, but is a rather inelegant explanation.  I do have to wonder whether some &#8220;hominid&#8221; fossils may be chimp/gorilla ancestors.  Not Ardi, but I&#8217;m thinking more along the lines of boisei and robustus (whichever genus they&#8217;ve now been placed in, if I remember correctly they were moved out of Australopithecus).</p>
<p>As you mention, there&#8217;s no reason why every hominid fossil necessarily represents a direct ancestor of ours, but there&#8217;s also no reason why they couldn&#8217;t also represent ancestors on the chimp or gorilla lines.  This is especially interesting in light of the hypothesis that our common ancestor may have been more resemblant of humans (or at least, would not have resembled modern chimps or gorillas).</p>
<p>Just food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Norwegian Shooter</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14907</link>
		<dc:creator>Norwegian Shooter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 21:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14907</guid>
		<description>Good post, Ardi is certainly exciting. And imagine waiting 17 years to publish! Science probably didn&#039;t have a website when they started!

It appears your web journalism skepticism wasn&#039;t up to snuff when you saw the Examiner article. Calling it reporting is generous. The Examiner is just citizen blogging targeted at individual markets for advertising. He picked his own headline and he is certainly not a journalist.

Please post some more of the best science reporting you&#039;ve come across on this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, Ardi is certainly exciting. And imagine waiting 17 years to publish! Science probably didn&#8217;t have a website when they started!</p>
<p>It appears your web journalism skepticism wasn&#8217;t up to snuff when you saw the Examiner article. Calling it reporting is generous. The Examiner is just citizen blogging targeted at individual markets for advertising. He picked his own headline and he is certainly not a journalist.</p>
<p>Please post some more of the best science reporting you&#8217;ve come across on this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14906</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14906</guid>
		<description>This find actually lead to a great discussion on a message board I&#039;m on. It was a great example of someone who is not a big follower of science, taking this information given, and coming to the same conclusion as anyone in the human evolution field. The only problem is that he had a gross misunderstanding of how evolution worked. 

http://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/603782/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

Admittedly it is a Cleveland Browns message board, so if bad football is offensive to you, do not proceed :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This find actually lead to a great discussion on a message board I&#8217;m on. It was a great example of someone who is not a big follower of science, taking this information given, and coming to the same conclusion as anyone in the human evolution field. The only problem is that he had a gross misunderstanding of how evolution worked. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/603782/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1" rel="nofollow">http://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/603782/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1</a></p>
<p>Admittedly it is a Cleveland Browns message board, so if bad football is offensive to you, do not proceed <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: jtpiatt</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14905</link>
		<dc:creator>jtpiatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 19:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14905</guid>
		<description>Of course, the &#039;scholars&#039; at DI have already begun the damage control on this find.  Casey Luskin&#039;s response uses a bizarre mixture of mutually exclusive criticisms to arrive at the conclusion that Ardi proves (ready for it…) that evolution is bunk.  For example, after an initial salvo in which he attempts to cast doubt on the viability of using small fragments to reconstruct the Ardi skeleton for use in a study, Luskin then argues that those very same dubious fragments prove that Ardi couldn’t have been related to humans.  The fact that he makes this breathless contradiction within the same paragraph is especially curious, as my guess is that most people’s skulls would have crumpled like a ripe melon in a trash compactor if subjected to the tremendous forces of cognitive dissonance generated by such a statement.  My only hypothesis for Luskin’s survival is that he has a substantial tolerance level built up from years of conditioning.  

These few predictable goons aside, this research on Ardi is simply fascinating, and I can’t wait to read more about it as future work is published over the next few years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, the &#8216;scholars&#8217; at DI have already begun the damage control on this find.  Casey Luskin&#8217;s response uses a bizarre mixture of mutually exclusive criticisms to arrive at the conclusion that Ardi proves (ready for it…) that evolution is bunk.  For example, after an initial salvo in which he attempts to cast doubt on the viability of using small fragments to reconstruct the Ardi skeleton for use in a study, Luskin then argues that those very same dubious fragments prove that Ardi couldn’t have been related to humans.  The fact that he makes this breathless contradiction within the same paragraph is especially curious, as my guess is that most people’s skulls would have crumpled like a ripe melon in a trash compactor if subjected to the tremendous forces of cognitive dissonance generated by such a statement.  My only hypothesis for Luskin’s survival is that he has a substantial tolerance level built up from years of conditioning.  </p>
<p>These few predictable goons aside, this research on Ardi is simply fascinating, and I can’t wait to read more about it as future work is published over the next few years.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Withakay</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14901</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Withakay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14901</guid>
		<description>&quot;and never not evolve.&quot;  was not intended to be a double negative. I was trying to decide between &quot;do not&quot; and &quot;never&quot; and flurbed them both together.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;and never not evolve.&#8221;  was not intended to be a double negative. I was trying to decide between &#8220;do not&#8221; and &#8220;never&#8221; and flurbed them both together.  <img src='http://theness.com/neurologicablog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Karl Withakay</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/ardipithecus-ramidus/comment-page-1/#comment-14900</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Withakay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 16:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1022#comment-14900</guid>
		<description>&quot;Our human biases lead to the tendency to imagine that the common ancestor between humans and chimps was very chimp-like, but chimps are just as far from that ancestor as we are.&quot;

This lack of understanding of evolution is very common.  It&#039;s the misconception that new species arise and split off from static, stagnant species that stay the same into modern times and never not evolve.  

Some people seem to think that the theory is that X million years ago there were chimpanzees, and some of them split off and eventually developed into modern humans and the rest stayed chimps, and there should be transitional forms from chimp to modern man rather than both chimps and humans having transitional forms back to a common ancestor that was neither chimp nor man.

Indeed, on a pure plausibility basis, there&#039;s no reason why modern chimps couldn&#039;t have evolved from a common upright ancestor that evolved from a non-upright ancestor.  Whales evolved from land mammals which evolved from sea creatures.

Another common misconception is that evolution and natural selection necessarily lead to increasingly &quot;sophisticated&quot; species.

I&#039;ve heard people speculate what modern intelligent dinosaur descendants would look like today if they hadn&#039;t been wiped out.  I ask why should we assume they would have developed intelligence if they had not been wiped out.  They were doing very well for themselves &quot;fat, dumb, and happy&quot; before something changed faster than they could adapt to it, and they died out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Our human biases lead to the tendency to imagine that the common ancestor between humans and chimps was very chimp-like, but chimps are just as far from that ancestor as we are.&#8221;</p>
<p>This lack of understanding of evolution is very common.  It&#8217;s the misconception that new species arise and split off from static, stagnant species that stay the same into modern times and never not evolve.  </p>
<p>Some people seem to think that the theory is that X million years ago there were chimpanzees, and some of them split off and eventually developed into modern humans and the rest stayed chimps, and there should be transitional forms from chimp to modern man rather than both chimps and humans having transitional forms back to a common ancestor that was neither chimp nor man.</p>
<p>Indeed, on a pure plausibility basis, there&#8217;s no reason why modern chimps couldn&#8217;t have evolved from a common upright ancestor that evolved from a non-upright ancestor.  Whales evolved from land mammals which evolved from sea creatures.</p>
<p>Another common misconception is that evolution and natural selection necessarily lead to increasingly &#8220;sophisticated&#8221; species.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard people speculate what modern intelligent dinosaur descendants would look like today if they hadn&#8217;t been wiped out.  I ask why should we assume they would have developed intelligence if they had not been wiped out.  They were doing very well for themselves &#8220;fat, dumb, and happy&#8221; before something changed faster than they could adapt to it, and they died out.</p>
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