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	<title>Comments on: Analyzing Harmless Nonsense</title>
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	<description>Your Daily Fix of Neuroscience, Skepticism, and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: Philgrimm</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45961</link>
		<dc:creator>Philgrimm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2012 18:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45961</guid>
		<description>My main criticism of skepticism is that by biassing everything on the assumption that rational normal consciousness is the sole source of dependable sensory input, you are denying the importance the other neuromodulatory systems; the fact that non-conscious neural activity is vital to the normal functioning of the Homo sapiens animal. It is well known that data derived from non-conscious mentation is used by the human animal. In fact, conscious recognition of all CNS activity is minuscule, and there is more non-rational thought occurring in each of use every day than can be patrolled by the hyper-intellectual rational part of us. All that non-rational neuronal activity is arbitrarily dismissed as non-important to the human condition because it isn&#039;t rational and it isn&#039;t remembered by &quot;me&quot; the one who is in control of this animal I call me.

Skepticism is acting as a boarder patrol, policing the boarders of rational scientific thought, thus maintaining an established and dignified paradigm. But what is the life cycle of a human paradigm, and how often have paradigm shifts occurred and isn&#039;t it time for another one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My main criticism of skepticism is that by biassing everything on the assumption that rational normal consciousness is the sole source of dependable sensory input, you are denying the importance the other neuromodulatory systems; the fact that non-conscious neural activity is vital to the normal functioning of the Homo sapiens animal. It is well known that data derived from non-conscious mentation is used by the human animal. In fact, conscious recognition of all CNS activity is minuscule, and there is more non-rational thought occurring in each of use every day than can be patrolled by the hyper-intellectual rational part of us. All that non-rational neuronal activity is arbitrarily dismissed as non-important to the human condition because it isn&#8217;t rational and it isn&#8217;t remembered by &#8220;me&#8221; the one who is in control of this animal I call me.</p>
<p>Skepticism is acting as a boarder patrol, policing the boarders of rational scientific thought, thus maintaining an established and dignified paradigm. But what is the life cycle of a human paradigm, and how often have paradigm shifts occurred and isn&#8217;t it time for another one?</p>
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		<title>By: milkybar251</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45921</link>
		<dc:creator>milkybar251</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45921</guid>
		<description>&#039;I will continue to focus a great deal of my skeptical efforts on topics that I feel have immediate consequences, such as my promotion of science-based medicine. But that effort is hugely informed by also addressing any claim that catches my interest, that reveals an aspect of poor logic or self-deception, or simply spreads misinformation or sloppy thinking.&#039;

And this is why I love your work</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;I will continue to focus a great deal of my skeptical efforts on topics that I feel have immediate consequences, such as my promotion of science-based medicine. But that effort is hugely informed by also addressing any claim that catches my interest, that reveals an aspect of poor logic or self-deception, or simply spreads misinformation or sloppy thinking.&#8217;</p>
<p>And this is why I love your work</p>
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		<title>By: BillyJoe7</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45918</link>
		<dc:creator>BillyJoe7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45918</guid>
		<description>...that should be &quot;four centuries of science&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;that should be &#8220;four centuries of science&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: BillyJoe7</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45917</link>
		<dc:creator>BillyJoe7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45917</guid>
		<description>A scientific fact:
A scientific fact is one for which there is such an extraordinary amount of evidence that it is unlikely that it will ever be overturned. A scientific fact can be overturned. Given sufficient contrary evidence, a scientific fact can be overturned, but it is extremely unlikely that such contrary evidence will ever be forthcoming. 

There is no Bigfoot.
In this case the evidence that should be there if Bigfoot exists, is not there.
Sixty years! There is no Bigfoot. Let&#039;s move on.

Evidence for life from non-life:
Viruses and prions - life or non-life?
Evolution - incremental change from simple to complex.
Plausible mechanisms for generating life from non-life.
Generation of the building blocks of life from non-life.
Absolutely no evidence for supernatural agency in the four decade history of science.

The afterlife:
Quite simply, there is no scientific evidence for an afterlife.
Therefore, it is irrational to believe in an afterlife.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A scientific fact:<br />
A scientific fact is one for which there is such an extraordinary amount of evidence that it is unlikely that it will ever be overturned. A scientific fact can be overturned. Given sufficient contrary evidence, a scientific fact can be overturned, but it is extremely unlikely that such contrary evidence will ever be forthcoming. </p>
<p>There is no Bigfoot.<br />
In this case the evidence that should be there if Bigfoot exists, is not there.<br />
Sixty years! There is no Bigfoot. Let&#8217;s move on.</p>
<p>Evidence for life from non-life:<br />
Viruses and prions &#8211; life or non-life?<br />
Evolution &#8211; incremental change from simple to complex.<br />
Plausible mechanisms for generating life from non-life.<br />
Generation of the building blocks of life from non-life.<br />
Absolutely no evidence for supernatural agency in the four decade history of science.</p>
<p>The afterlife:<br />
Quite simply, there is no scientific evidence for an afterlife.<br />
Therefore, it is irrational to believe in an afterlife.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45914</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 03:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45914</guid>
		<description>Dr. N- 
First I have to know- how do you define science and pseudoscience?

I think it is OK for you to discuss any topic from your point of view.  I don&#039;t think that people are turned off to a discussion about how accurate or reliable certain types of evidence are.
For example- if you want to make the point that a claimed sighting of bigfoot with a blurry photograph isn&#039;t proof of bigfoot&#039;s existence, then I think you will have no problem with that.  Anecdotes aren&#039;t proof.

If you want to say that there is no bigfoot, then I think you&#039;d have a problem because that is the same as claiming bigfoot will never be discovered.  

Think of it this way...  We can agree that nobody has ever come up with a chemical formula that produces life de novo.  Further, we can see that past claims to the contrary were not evidence.
Now, can we agree that such a formula will never be found?
Why would one conclusion be demanded in the one case (bigfoot hasn&#039;t been found, therefore there isn&#039;t one)  and the opposite conclusion be demanded in the other case (formula for life hasn&#039;t been found, therefore we know it exists)?

Similarly with Dr. A&#039;s NDE story-- if you want to say his story isn&#039;t proof of heaven- then that is clearly true and a point needing to be made.
If you want to claim there is no heaven (as you seem to hint in the last part of the posting on this), then I have no idea why I would agree with that.
Certainly Dr. A&#039;s story doesn&#039;t disprove the existence of heaven.

It seems we go from, &quot;This person isn&#039;t thinking clearly on topic &#039;A&#039;,&quot;  to &quot;Therefore what he is saying about topic &#039;A&#039; is wrong.&quot;
But that is illogical. 
Example-- &quot;I had a vision from the other side.  I know without doubt due to this vision that the sun is about 93 million miles away.&quot;
My reason for knowing might be crazy- but what I know isn&#039;t.

Does any of what I&#039;m saying make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. N-<br />
First I have to know- how do you define science and pseudoscience?</p>
<p>I think it is OK for you to discuss any topic from your point of view.  I don&#8217;t think that people are turned off to a discussion about how accurate or reliable certain types of evidence are.<br />
For example- if you want to make the point that a claimed sighting of bigfoot with a blurry photograph isn&#8217;t proof of bigfoot&#8217;s existence, then I think you will have no problem with that.  Anecdotes aren&#8217;t proof.</p>
<p>If you want to say that there is no bigfoot, then I think you&#8217;d have a problem because that is the same as claiming bigfoot will never be discovered.  </p>
<p>Think of it this way&#8230;  We can agree that nobody has ever come up with a chemical formula that produces life de novo.  Further, we can see that past claims to the contrary were not evidence.<br />
Now, can we agree that such a formula will never be found?<br />
Why would one conclusion be demanded in the one case (bigfoot hasn&#8217;t been found, therefore there isn&#8217;t one)  and the opposite conclusion be demanded in the other case (formula for life hasn&#8217;t been found, therefore we know it exists)?</p>
<p>Similarly with Dr. A&#8217;s NDE story&#8211; if you want to say his story isn&#8217;t proof of heaven- then that is clearly true and a point needing to be made.<br />
If you want to claim there is no heaven (as you seem to hint in the last part of the posting on this), then I have no idea why I would agree with that.<br />
Certainly Dr. A&#8217;s story doesn&#8217;t disprove the existence of heaven.</p>
<p>It seems we go from, &#8220;This person isn&#8217;t thinking clearly on topic &#8216;A&#8217;,&#8221;  to &#8220;Therefore what he is saying about topic &#8216;A&#8217; is wrong.&#8221;<br />
But that is illogical.<br />
Example&#8211; &#8220;I had a vision from the other side.  I know without doubt due to this vision that the sun is about 93 million miles away.&#8221;<br />
My reason for knowing might be crazy- but what I know isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Does any of what I&#8217;m saying make sense?</p>
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		<title>By: daedalus2u</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45912</link>
		<dc:creator>daedalus2u</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 03:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45912</guid>
		<description>Some of the nonsense that people believe is  not so harmless.  What is most troubling are the things that are not correct and which people believe to such an extent that they never examine those premises or are unable to examine those premises.  The concept of absolute space and time was fundamental to Newtonian physics, Relativity showed that it was wrong.  

Modern physics shows us that there can&#039;t be an immaterial mind that interfaces with a material brain.  Conservation of mass/energy, spin, momentum, and so on, simply don&#039;t allow something immaterial to have effects on something material.  Do we reject all of physics so as to allow for spooky ghosts?  Or do we abandon the idea of an immaterial mind?  

The problem is that human intuition tells us things which are wrong.  Our intuition tells us that there is an agent animating the brain and so we call that agent, the mind.  

The idea of people having an immaterial mind can be harmless nonsense, or it can motivate people to do great harm.  SBM has adopted brain death as being the definition of death, irreversible destruction of the brain.  This definition allows us to state with complete certainty that a mass of human tissue without a living and functioning brain is not and cannot be a living human being.  

However there are people who do want to change the definition of what a human being is, such that a single cell, a fertilized egg or zygote is a living human being with a full panoply of human rights.  The number of living brain cells a brain must have to be considered to be not dead is not well established, however that number cannot be zero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the nonsense that people believe is  not so harmless.  What is most troubling are the things that are not correct and which people believe to such an extent that they never examine those premises or are unable to examine those premises.  The concept of absolute space and time was fundamental to Newtonian physics, Relativity showed that it was wrong.  </p>
<p>Modern physics shows us that there can&#8217;t be an immaterial mind that interfaces with a material brain.  Conservation of mass/energy, spin, momentum, and so on, simply don&#8217;t allow something immaterial to have effects on something material.  Do we reject all of physics so as to allow for spooky ghosts?  Or do we abandon the idea of an immaterial mind?  </p>
<p>The problem is that human intuition tells us things which are wrong.  Our intuition tells us that there is an agent animating the brain and so we call that agent, the mind.  </p>
<p>The idea of people having an immaterial mind can be harmless nonsense, or it can motivate people to do great harm.  SBM has adopted brain death as being the definition of death, irreversible destruction of the brain.  This definition allows us to state with complete certainty that a mass of human tissue without a living and functioning brain is not and cannot be a living human being.  </p>
<p>However there are people who do want to change the definition of what a human being is, such that a single cell, a fertilized egg or zygote is a living human being with a full panoply of human rights.  The number of living brain cells a brain must have to be considered to be not dead is not well established, however that number cannot be zero.</p>
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		<title>By: ccbowers</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45911</link>
		<dc:creator>ccbowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 02:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45911</guid>
		<description>&quot;People fear death and miss their loved ones. That is why it is a common myth. Seeing those loved ones after death is a pleasant fantasy.&quot;

Again you miss the point.  This was never about whether or not there is an afterlife.   It was about how a specific person evaluated his own experiences, how trustworthy those perceptions are, and what reasonable conclusions he (and we) can draw from them.  The afterlife was just the interpretation that the person put on those experiences in this case, but the topic could have been any number of experiences

I agree that people can find comfort in the idea of an afterlife but that is a separate issue altogether, but you want to conflate them.   There have been many posts on this blog in which Steve has pointed out the flaws in a person&#039;s thinking, yet you object to this one in particular.  Just because this one is peripherally related to (barely brushes up against) the concept of religion, does not give it special priviledge against analysis of  claims made.   A reasonable person would not find offense to such a discussion, and ultimately this one surgeon&#039;s experience has no impact on whether there is an afterlife regardless of a person&#039;s point of view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;People fear death and miss their loved ones. That is why it is a common myth. Seeing those loved ones after death is a pleasant fantasy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Again you miss the point.  This was never about whether or not there is an afterlife.   It was about how a specific person evaluated his own experiences, how trustworthy those perceptions are, and what reasonable conclusions he (and we) can draw from them.  The afterlife was just the interpretation that the person put on those experiences in this case, but the topic could have been any number of experiences</p>
<p>I agree that people can find comfort in the idea of an afterlife but that is a separate issue altogether, but you want to conflate them.   There have been many posts on this blog in which Steve has pointed out the flaws in a person&#8217;s thinking, yet you object to this one in particular.  Just because this one is peripherally related to (barely brushes up against) the concept of religion, does not give it special priviledge against analysis of  claims made.   A reasonable person would not find offense to such a discussion, and ultimately this one surgeon&#8217;s experience has no impact on whether there is an afterlife regardless of a person&#8217;s point of view.</p>
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		<title>By: ccbowers</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45910</link>
		<dc:creator>ccbowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 01:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45910</guid>
		<description>&quot;I am not espousing an argument for nonsense&quot;

I never said, nor implied that you were.  Why are you implying that I did?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am not espousing an argument for nonsense&#8221;</p>
<p>I never said, nor implied that you were.  Why are you implying that I did?</p>
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		<title>By: tmac57</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45909</link>
		<dc:creator>tmac57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 00:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45909</guid>
		<description>Karrlo- I would like to point out that that line was Steve Novella&#039;s,not mine,but I agree,it was well said.

locutusbrg-I can think of several instances where the belief in an afterlife may not be a good thing:
1. Crazy religious zealot who kills their self,spouse and children because they believe that this world is wicked/doomed/too flawed (whatever) so that they can be together in a perfect afterlife. 

2.Someone sleepwalks through this life because they see it as a mere stepping stone to the &#039;really good stuff&#039; on the other side.

3.Deeply religious person who values this life,does not take the necessary precautions,medical advice or planning for their eldercare,because God will provide,and if they miscalculate,all will be well in the afterlife (optimistic fatalism).

Anything that provides that &#039;It will all come out in the wash&#039; kind of contentment,can also have a darker side that can mean misery,heartbreak,and burden on the believer,their dependents,and whomever has the unfortunate task of caring for them,if it comes to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karrlo- I would like to point out that that line was Steve Novella&#8217;s,not mine,but I agree,it was well said.</p>
<p>locutusbrg-I can think of several instances where the belief in an afterlife may not be a good thing:<br />
1. Crazy religious zealot who kills their self,spouse and children because they believe that this world is wicked/doomed/too flawed (whatever) so that they can be together in a perfect afterlife. </p>
<p>2.Someone sleepwalks through this life because they see it as a mere stepping stone to the &#8216;really good stuff&#8217; on the other side.</p>
<p>3.Deeply religious person who values this life,does not take the necessary precautions,medical advice or planning for their eldercare,because God will provide,and if they miscalculate,all will be well in the afterlife (optimistic fatalism).</p>
<p>Anything that provides that &#8216;It will all come out in the wash&#8217; kind of contentment,can also have a darker side that can mean misery,heartbreak,and burden on the believer,their dependents,and whomever has the unfortunate task of caring for them,if it comes to that.</p>
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		<title>By: locutusbrg</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/analyzing-harmless-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-45908</link>
		<dc:creator>locutusbrg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2012 00:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=4941#comment-45908</guid>
		<description>@ccbowers
@billyjoe7
Again I can only say this one more time, I am not espousing an argument for nonsense, I am not trying to support an argument for an afterlife in any any any way. I am trying to express an example of how a person(Not ME, not a critical thinker), can view a skeptic that is chasing down every last little bit of nonsense. You can question assumptions about the belief. Heaven/hell as a christian example.
People fear death and miss their loved ones. That is why it is a common myth. Seeing those loved ones after death is a pleasant fantasy. There are exceptions, but on balance life after death is seen as a reward. Please no more I don&#039;t want to discuss unicorns, bigfoot, or reptoids either.
Otherwise I enjoy the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ccbowers<br />
@billyjoe7<br />
Again I can only say this one more time, I am not espousing an argument for nonsense, I am not trying to support an argument for an afterlife in any any any way. I am trying to express an example of how a person(Not ME, not a critical thinker), can view a skeptic that is chasing down every last little bit of nonsense. You can question assumptions about the belief. Heaven/hell as a christian example.<br />
People fear death and miss their loved ones. That is why it is a common myth. Seeing those loved ones after death is a pleasant fantasy. There are exceptions, but on balance life after death is seen as a reward. Please no more I don&#8217;t want to discuss unicorns, bigfoot, or reptoids either.<br />
Otherwise I enjoy the discussion.</p>
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