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	<title>Comments on: A Post-Modernist Response to Science-Based Medicine</title>
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		<title>By: davejm</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26476</link>
		<dc:creator>davejm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26476</guid>
		<description>I used the term &#039;science-based medicine&#039; from time to time, even before I discovered the SGU, Neurologica and the SBM blog.  I had assumed a lot of people would have.  It felt like the right phrase to use when debating the subject of mainstream vs &#039;alternative&#039; modalities; specifically when talking about the science (or lack of!).  

When debating, I find that people often don&#039;t have a good understanding of how science works or why it is important.  There tends to be a &#039;black and white&#039; picture in people&#039;s minds where on one side they have &#039;big pharma&#039; (and the problems that go with it) and more &#039;natural&#039; alternative options on the other.

So, instead of using the term &#039;mainstream medicine&#039;, I found myself using &#039;science-based medicine&#039; to emphasise that my reasoning for arguing in its favour is to do with my understanding of the scientific evidence rather than any misguided faith in &#039;big pharma&#039; just to be mainstream.  It helps emphasise that my opinions are formed based on that scientific grounding.

So it was great for me to see the term used more &#039;officially&#039;, when I discovered the blog.  Needless to say it was immediately bookmarked, and I&#039;ve visited daily ever since!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used the term &#8216;science-based medicine&#8217; from time to time, even before I discovered the SGU, Neurologica and the SBM blog.  I had assumed a lot of people would have.  It felt like the right phrase to use when debating the subject of mainstream vs &#8216;alternative&#8217; modalities; specifically when talking about the science (or lack of!).  </p>
<p>When debating, I find that people often don&#8217;t have a good understanding of how science works or why it is important.  There tends to be a &#8216;black and white&#8217; picture in people&#8217;s minds where on one side they have &#8216;big pharma&#8217; (and the problems that go with it) and more &#8216;natural&#8217; alternative options on the other.</p>
<p>So, instead of using the term &#8216;mainstream medicine&#8217;, I found myself using &#8216;science-based medicine&#8217; to emphasise that my reasoning for arguing in its favour is to do with my understanding of the scientific evidence rather than any misguided faith in &#8216;big pharma&#8217; just to be mainstream.  It helps emphasise that my opinions are formed based on that scientific grounding.</p>
<p>So it was great for me to see the term used more &#8216;officially&#8217;, when I discovered the blog.  Needless to say it was immediately bookmarked, and I&#8217;ve visited daily ever since!</p>
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		<title>By: Fifi</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26469</link>
		<dc:creator>Fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26469</guid>
		<description>&quot;When it becomes possible for a people to describe as ‘postmodern’ the décor of a room, the design of a building, the diegesis of a film, the construction of a record, or a ‘scratch’ video, a television commercial, or an arts documentary, or the ‘intertextual’ relations between them, the layout of a page in a fashion magazine or critical journal, an anti-teleological tendency within epistemology, the attack on the ‘metaphysics of presence’, a general attenuation of feeling, the collective chagrin and morbid projections of a post-War generation of baby boomers confronting disillusioned middle-age, the ‘predicament’ of reflexivity, a group of rhetorical tropes, a proliferation of surfaces, a new phase in commodity fetishism, a fascination for images, codes and styles, a process of cultural, political or existential fragmentation and/or crisis, the ‘de-centring’ of the subject, an ‘incredulity towards metanarratives’, the replacement of unitary power axes by a plurality of power/discourse formations, the ‘implosion of meaning’, the collapse of cultural hierarchies, the dread engendered by the threat of nuclear self-destruction, the decline of the university, the functioning and effects of the new miniaturised technologies, broad societal and economic shifts into a ‘media’, ‘consumer’ or ‘multinational’ phase, a sense (depending on who you read) of ‘placelessness’ or the abandonment of placelessness (‘critical regionalism’) or (even) a generalised substitution of spatial for temporal coordinates - when it becomes possible to describe all these things as ‘Postmodern’ (or more simply using a current abbreviation as ‘post’ or ‘very post’) then it’s clear we are in the presence of a buzzword.[15]&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When it becomes possible for a people to describe as ‘postmodern’ the décor of a room, the design of a building, the diegesis of a film, the construction of a record, or a ‘scratch’ video, a television commercial, or an arts documentary, or the ‘intertextual’ relations between them, the layout of a page in a fashion magazine or critical journal, an anti-teleological tendency within epistemology, the attack on the ‘metaphysics of presence’, a general attenuation of feeling, the collective chagrin and morbid projections of a post-War generation of baby boomers confronting disillusioned middle-age, the ‘predicament’ of reflexivity, a group of rhetorical tropes, a proliferation of surfaces, a new phase in commodity fetishism, a fascination for images, codes and styles, a process of cultural, political or existential fragmentation and/or crisis, the ‘de-centring’ of the subject, an ‘incredulity towards metanarratives’, the replacement of unitary power axes by a plurality of power/discourse formations, the ‘implosion of meaning’, the collapse of cultural hierarchies, the dread engendered by the threat of nuclear self-destruction, the decline of the university, the functioning and effects of the new miniaturised technologies, broad societal and economic shifts into a ‘media’, ‘consumer’ or ‘multinational’ phase, a sense (depending on who you read) of ‘placelessness’ or the abandonment of placelessness (‘critical regionalism’) or (even) a generalised substitution of spatial for temporal coordinates &#8211; when it becomes possible to describe all these things as ‘Postmodern’ (or more simply using a current abbreviation as ‘post’ or ‘very post’) then it’s clear we are in the presence of a buzzword.[15]&#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Novella</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26466</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Novella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26466</guid>
		<description>comments are allowed on the new post</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>comments are allowed on the new post</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisH</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26464</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26464</guid>
		<description>(comments are not allowed on the more recent article) I see that Dr. Zilderberg is objecting to accusations of being anti-vax.  That is because she came to Respectful Insolence, and she started out being reasonable, but got a bit moralistic about the HPV vaccine: &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/i_know_you_are_but_what_am_i_medical_voi.php#comment-2675391&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;In response to the HPV discussion: I am merely indicating that there is a viable alternative to prevention -- discussing safe sexual practices with your child, which is really predicated on the work of establishing a trusting long-term relationship with him/her.&lt;/a&gt;.

Which I thought is a bit paternalistic.  Though perhaps it is also a &quot;shruggie&quot; attitude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(comments are not allowed on the more recent article) I see that Dr. Zilderberg is objecting to accusations of being anti-vax.  That is because she came to Respectful Insolence, and she started out being reasonable, but got a bit moralistic about the HPV vaccine: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/i_know_you_are_but_what_am_i_medical_voi.php#comment-2675391" rel="nofollow">In response to the HPV discussion: I am merely indicating that there is a viable alternative to prevention &#8212; discussing safe sexual practices with your child, which is really predicated on the work of establishing a trusting long-term relationship with him/her.</a>.</p>
<p>Which I thought is a bit paternalistic.  Though perhaps it is also a &#8220;shruggie&#8221; attitude.</p>
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		<title>By: CrookedTimber</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26463</link>
		<dc:creator>CrookedTimber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26463</guid>
		<description>@TheRedQueen

I immediately thought of the recent Atlantic article as well.  I find John Ioannidis’ work very interesting but something seemed off about the tone from the author.  I was hoping Steve would cover it here, but it was covered at Science Based Medicine very well &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=7734/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; .

This discussion with Marya could be interesting if she decides to engage Steve&#039;s actual points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TheRedQueen</p>
<p>I immediately thought of the recent Atlantic article as well.  I find John Ioannidis’ work very interesting but something seemed off about the tone from the author.  I was hoping Steve would cover it here, but it was covered at Science Based Medicine very well <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=7734/" rel="nofollow">here</a> .</p>
<p>This discussion with Marya could be interesting if she decides to engage Steve&#8217;s actual points.</p>
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		<title>By: TheRedQueen</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26460</link>
		<dc:creator>TheRedQueen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 06:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26460</guid>
		<description>This article in The Atlantic http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/1/

critiques the some of the challenges inherent in implementing actual SBM or even EBM but with the goal of remedying and reforming by honest appraisal --scientists and doctors are not &#039;miracle workers&#039;.  And real breakthroughs are more like the rare beneficial mutation in a gene whereas most possible interventions are either neutral or harmful (to continue my evolutionary metaphor).

This attitude is far from paternalistic and all-knowing or arrogant.

I enjoyed reading Paul Feyerbend (&quot;Against Method: Towards An Anarchy of Knowledge&quot;) back in the eighties in juxtapose to Karl Popper but I don&#039;t embrace the &#039;nothing is really true so anything is possible&#039; stance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article in The Atlantic <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/1/" rel="nofollow">http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/1/</a></p>
<p>critiques the some of the challenges inherent in implementing actual SBM or even EBM but with the goal of remedying and reforming by honest appraisal &#8211;scientists and doctors are not &#8216;miracle workers&#8217;.  And real breakthroughs are more like the rare beneficial mutation in a gene whereas most possible interventions are either neutral or harmful (to continue my evolutionary metaphor).</p>
<p>This attitude is far from paternalistic and all-knowing or arrogant.</p>
<p>I enjoyed reading Paul Feyerbend (&#8220;Against Method: Towards An Anarchy of Knowledge&#8221;) back in the eighties in juxtapose to Karl Popper but I don&#8217;t embrace the &#8216;nothing is really true so anything is possible&#8217; stance.</p>
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		<title>By: eean</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26459</link>
		<dc:creator>eean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 04:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26459</guid>
		<description>She&#039;s doing a continuity reboot at her blog now
http://evimedgroup.blogspot.com/2010/10/furthering-discussion.html so that she doesn&#039;t have to address any of specific points you make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She&#8217;s doing a continuity reboot at her blog now<br />
<a href="http://evimedgroup.blogspot.com/2010/10/furthering-discussion.html" rel="nofollow">http://evimedgroup.blogspot.com/2010/10/furthering-discussion.html</a> so that she doesn&#8217;t have to address any of specific points you make.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26458</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26458</guid>
		<description>Dr. N-
point taken.  Thank-you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. N-<br />
point taken.  Thank-you.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Novella</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26457</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Novella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26457</guid>
		<description>sonic - point taken. I never heard the term, and came up with it myself as a name for the SBM site and, more broadly, the philosophy. This was after years of discussion among colleagues as to what we should call what we do. 

Of course I cannot know if it was used by individuals prior to that. It is still proper to use the phrase &quot;coin the term&quot; if you are the first to use it with a specific meaning. In this case, we do have a very specific meaning to SBM - essentially, EBM + prior plausibility, and more broadly applying scientific principles to standards within medicine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sonic &#8211; point taken. I never heard the term, and came up with it myself as a name for the SBM site and, more broadly, the philosophy. This was after years of discussion among colleagues as to what we should call what we do. </p>
<p>Of course I cannot know if it was used by individuals prior to that. It is still proper to use the phrase &#8220;coin the term&#8221; if you are the first to use it with a specific meaning. In this case, we do have a very specific meaning to SBM &#8211; essentially, EBM + prior plausibility, and more broadly applying scientific principles to standards within medicine.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/a-post-modernist-response-to-science-based-medicine/comment-page-1/#comment-26456</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2430#comment-26456</guid>
		<description>This article makes good points well.
-- I particularly liked the part about the difference between the best and the &#039;perfect&#039;.

I have one (perhaps minor) irritation.
My father used the term &#039;science-based medicine&#039; many years ago (and I know he was not alone in doing so).
Perhaps the claim should be that you have popularized the phrase (which you are in fact doing either way) as opposed to coin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article makes good points well.<br />
&#8211; I particularly liked the part about the difference between the best and the &#8216;perfect&#8217;.</p>
<p>I have one (perhaps minor) irritation.<br />
My father used the term &#8216;science-based medicine&#8217; many years ago (and I know he was not alone in doing so).<br />
Perhaps the claim should be that you have popularized the phrase (which you are in fact doing either way) as opposed to coin.</p>
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